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shoes 4 preview released!

shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-10 @ 17:06
Hello shoesers,

hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.

It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:

http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html

Shoes on!
Tobi
-- 
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Olivier Morel
Date:
2014-05-12 @ 08:37
could not decode message

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Martin DeMello
Date:
2014-05-14 @ 18:55
brilliant work!

martin

On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer
<tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:
> Hello shoesers,
>
> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>
> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>
> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>
> Shoes on!
> Tobi
> --
> www.pragtob.info
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Luka Povreslo
Date:
2014-05-21 @ 19:42
I look forward to try it but still haven't. Can someone tell me what are
main difference between it and Shoes 3 other than running? :)


2014-05-14 20:55 GMT+02:00 Martin DeMello <martindemello.libre@gmail.com>:

> brilliant work!
>
> martin
>
> On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer
> <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:
> > Hello shoesers,
> >
> > hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> > shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
> >
> > It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> > and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
> >
> > http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
> >
> > Shoes on!
> > Tobi
> > --
> > www.pragtob.info
> >
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-22 @ 12:38
The main difference is that it's all ruby code and it runs on JRuby / 
Java SWT :) Which means you can't use gems with c extensions (that were 
difficult to use before either way). Otherwise we cut the video support.

And of course there are still bugs/incompatibilities - but we're 
working on it :)

Cheers,
Tobi

On Wed 21 May 2014 09:42:48 PM CEST, Luka Povreslo wrote:
> I look forward to try it but still haven't. Can someone tell me what
> are main difference between it and Shoes 3 other than running? :)
>
>
> 2014-05-14 20:55 GMT+02:00 Martin DeMello
> <martindemello.libre@gmail.com <mailto:martindemello.libre@gmail.com>>:
>
>     brilliant work!
>
>     martin
>
>     On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer
>     <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>     <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>> wrote:
>     > Hello shoesers,
>     >
>     > hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
>     > shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>     >
>     > It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular,
>     all ruby
>     > and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>     >
>     > http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>     >
>     > Shoes on!
>     > Tobi
>     > --
>     > www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>     >
>
>

--
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Kc Erb
Date:
2014-05-10 @ 17:21
Yay!!!


On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer <
tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:

> Hello shoesers,
>
> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>
> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>
> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>
> Shoes on!
> Tobi
> --
> www.pragtob.info
>
>


-- 
 "If there is an exception to every rule, then every rule must have at
least one exception; the exception to this one being that it has no
exception."

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
ashbb
Date:
2014-05-10 @ 23:12
Cool!
Thank you, Tobi!
You've been playing an extraordinary role in this release.
My hat goes off to you. :-D

ashbb

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
David Eastman
Date:
2014-05-11 @ 15:56
Well done, this is marvellous.

I'll be trying to rebuild my previous stuff in the new shoes - I think
without rvm my jruby and real ruby have got the gems mixed up and I cannot
get shoes to respond.

And of course - packaging is king. For a game maker like me, I look at
Notch releasing Minecraft in java so I know its all good.


On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer <
tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:

> Hello shoesers,
>
> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>
> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>
> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>
> Shoes on!
> Tobi
> --
> www.pragtob.info
>
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Sebastjan Hribar
Date:
2014-05-11 @ 07:18
On 10. 05. 2014 19:06, Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
> Hello shoesers,
>
> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>
> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>
> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>
> Shoes on!
> Tobi
Awesome!!!!
I've just installed it as a gem and ran a test app.

Can't wait to port my apps:)

regards,
seba

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-11 @ 11:33
Jay thanks for the praise everyone! =)

@Sebastjan: Would be awesome if you could leave the original apps lying 
around (or well hopefully they are under VCS). E.g. stuff like this 
would be awesome to test release candidate releases in the future as we 
want to be as compatible to shoes3 as possible. We fixed a couple of 
bugs/inconsitencies otherwise in an ideal world they would work though 
:)

Cheers,
Tobi

On Sun 11 May 2014 09:18:39 AM CEST, Sebastjan Hribar wrote:
> On 10. 05. 2014 19:06, Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Hello shoesers,
>>
>> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
>> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>>
>> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
>> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>>
>> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>>
>> Shoes on!
>> Tobi
> Awesome!!!!
> I've just installed it as a gem and ran a test app.
>
> Can't wait to port my apps:)
>
> regards,
> seba

--
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Sebastjan Hribar
Date:
2014-05-11 @ 17:15
On 11. 05. 2014 13:33, Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
> Jay thanks for the praise everyone! =)
>
> @Sebastjan: Would be awesome if you could leave the original apps lying
> around (or well hopefully they are under VCS). E.g. stuff like this
> would be awesome to test release candidate releases in the future as we
> want to be as compatible to shoes3 as possible. We fixed a couple of
> bugs/inconsitencies otherwise in an ideal world they would work though
> :)
I use git for all projects, but most of the current shoes apps are 
written for green shoes,
but there aren't that many incompatibilities with shoes3, if any.

Still, I'll probably completely separate the old and new shoes apps so 
the originals will be around:)

regards,
seba

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Catsquotl
Date:
2014-05-11 @ 04:56
Yipieeee,

I had one 3 year old  unfinished simple old green_shoes project lying 
around.
changed the require's  to shoes and presto... seems to work like a charm.

Good work guys and girls.. Well done.
Eelco

Tobias Pfeiffer schreef op 10-5-2014 19:06:
> Hello shoesers,
>
> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>
> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>
> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>
> Shoes on!
> Tobi

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Drew Tardif
Date:
2014-05-23 @ 08:49
I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green shoes gem. What 
would the differences be between this and green shoes.




On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer 
<tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:

> Hello shoesers,
> 
> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
> 
> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
> 
> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
> 
> Shoes on!
> Tobi
> -- 
> www.pragtob.info
> 

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-24 @ 14:20
Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most parts that 
I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he is the one 
that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and 
green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the same thing.

There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes - it's been too 
long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of 
bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the same 
mostly.

One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is based upon 
MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas shoes4 uses 
JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and SWT. SWT 
makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window layout 
etc. you are used to from your operating system.

Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now whereas 
shoes4 is actively developed.

Hope that helped you! =)

Shoes on!
Tobi

On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
> I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green shoes gem. What
would the differences be between this and green shoes.
>
>
>
>
> On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer 
<tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:
>
>> Hello shoesers,
>>
>> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
>> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>>
>> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
>> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>>
>> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>>
>> Shoes on!
>> Tobi
>> --
>> www.pragtob.info
>>

--
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
peter marien
Date:
2014-05-24 @ 19:59
As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes will be
developped further.
I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared with MRI Ruby.
Just my opinion..

Shoes on
Peter


2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer <
tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:

> Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most parts that
> I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he is the one
> that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
> green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the same thing.
>
> There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes - it's been too
> long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
> bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the same
> mostly.
>
> One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is based upon
> MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas shoes4 uses
> JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and SWT. SWT
> makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window layout
> etc. you are used to from your operating system.
>
> Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now whereas
> shoes4 is actively developed.
>
> Hope that helped you! =)
>
> Shoes on!
> Tobi
>
> On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
> > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green shoes gem. What
> would the differences be between this and green shoes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer <
> tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello shoesers,
> >>
> >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
> >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
> >>
> >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
> >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
> >>
> >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
> >>
> >> Shoes on!
> >> Tobi
> >> --
> >> www.pragtob.info
> >>
>
> --
> www.pragtob.info
>
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Drew Tardif
Date:
2014-05-24 @ 20:15
What makes it a pain?




On May 24, 2014, at 3:59 PM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes will be 
developped further.
> I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared with MRI Ruby.
> Just my opinion..
> 
> Shoes on
> Peter
> 
> 
> 2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer 
<tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:
>> Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most parts that
>> I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he is the one
>> that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
>> green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the same thing.
>> 
>> There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes - it's been too
>> long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
>> bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the same
>> mostly.
>> 
>> One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is based upon
>> MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas shoes4 uses
>> JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and SWT. SWT
>> makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window layout
>> etc. you are used to from your operating system.
>> 
>> Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now whereas
>> shoes4 is actively developed.
>> 
>> Hope that helped you! =)
>> 
>> Shoes on!
>> Tobi
>> 
>> On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
>> > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green shoes gem. 
What would the differences be between this and green shoes.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer 
<tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello shoesers,
>> >>
>> >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
>> >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>> >>
>> >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
>> >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>> >>
>> >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>> >>
>> >> Shoes on!
>> >> Tobi
>> >> --
>> >> www.pragtob.info
>> >>
>> 
>> --
>> www.pragtob.info
> 

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-24 @ 20:29
I don't know what you mean by FLOSS - guessing you meant FOSS. So I run 
all of it on OpenJDK which is open source and runs perfectly normal and 
fine. Also SWT is open source so open source all the way!

People will need to have a JDK installed, although we plan to have an 
installer/functionality in the packager to download the JDK on demand. 
But that's more to download. And we need to check licenses, doability 
and everything. On the plan for rc1.

I don't know why people refer to JRuby as a pain. My only pain point I 
have with it is start up times, as it has to spin up a JVM it takes a 
couple of seconds to start, which can be a pain point in TDD but it's 
not too bad if you ask me. So starting a shoes4 app, no matter how 
small it is, takes a couple of seconds (~5 for me, depends on your 
machine).

Also C-extensions don't work with JRuby. That are a couple of gems with 
some C-code. Most of them have Java replacements, so that's not a biggy 
to my mind.

I could also talk about the strengths of JRuby at length like 
performance and Java integration. :)

On the other hand, shoes4 isn't only about JRuby and SWT. Shoes4 is way 
more than that. Shoes 4 has exchangeable backends. A huge part of the 
code is just Ruby, no dependencies on JRuby or SWT. This should make 
future implementations easier. JRuby and SWT is the first backend. It's 
probably not the last. There is a proof of concept MRI + QT out there. 
Also a new proof of concept that is totally exciting using Opal.rb and 
atom-shell that might also allow us to compile to web pages, allowing 
for way more options.

Hope that helps you :)

Shoes on!
Tobi

On Sat 24 May 2014 10:15:19 PM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
> What makes it a pain?
>
>
>
>
> On May 24, 2014, at 3:59 PM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com
> <mailto:daddie88@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes will be
>> developped further.
>> I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared with
>> MRI Ruby.
>> Just my opinion..
>>
>> Shoes on
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> 2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer
>> <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>> <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>>:
>>
>>     Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most parts that
>>     I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he is
>>     the one
>>     that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
>>     green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the same
>>     thing.
>>
>>     There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes - it's
>>     been too
>>     long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
>>     bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the same
>>     mostly.
>>
>>     One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is based upon
>>     MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas shoes4 uses
>>     JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and
>>     SWT. SWT
>>     makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window layout
>>     etc. you are used to from your operating system.
>>
>>     Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now whereas
>>     shoes4 is actively developed.
>>
>>     Hope that helped you! =)
>>
>>     Shoes on!
>>     Tobi
>>
>>     On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
>>     > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green shoes
>>     gem. What would the differences be between this and green shoes.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer
>>     <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>>     <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>> wrote:
>>     >
>>     >> Hello shoesers,
>>     >>
>>     >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the
>>     first
>>     >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years
>>     ago.
>>     >>
>>     >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular,
>>     all ruby
>>     >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>>     >>
>>     >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>>     >>
>>     >> Shoes on!
>>     >> Tobi
>>     >> --
>>     >> www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>>     >>
>>
>>     --
>>     www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>>
>>

--
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
peter marien
Date:
2014-05-24 @ 21:17
All sort of problems requiring gems, paths, load speed, running behind on
MRI.
Getting something done in MRI is easy with JRuby there is extra complexity,
not to mention the extra java stuff you are confronted with all the time
when you look for help.
I kind of hate java, it's the opposite of Ruby. JRuby is a good way of
ameliorating Java and let it stop there.
After a change to my code it takes a minute to load with JRuby, through a
JAR i'm busy for several minutes, with MRI it executes immediately.
My code needs ways of dealing in which environment it is executed, yek !
The JAR way is especially slow and cumbersome.

I use JRuby when i need to distribute as a JAR using Warble while all i
need is a decent compiler so that i end up with EXEcutables (i'm on
windows).
And yes, with green_shoes and ocra this is possible but some other gems
also cause problems there.
So i like to use green_shoes for quick projects and rely on QtRuby for the
heavier ones.

I appreciate the work the developpers of Shoes 4 do but will probably never
use it and i hope some developpers will keep making green shoes better.

require 'green_shoes'

def make_fun
  ..
end


2014-05-24 22:15 GMT+02:00 Drew Tardif <drewtardif@gmail.com>:

> What makes it a pain?
>
>
>
>
> On May 24, 2014, at 3:59 PM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes will be
> developped further.
> I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared with MRI
> Ruby.
> Just my opinion..
>
> Shoes on
> Peter
>
>
> 2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer <
> tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:
>
>> Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most parts that
>> I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he is the one
>> that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
>> green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the same thing.
>>
>> There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes - it's been too
>> long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
>> bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the same
>> mostly.
>>
>> One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is based upon
>> MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas shoes4 uses
>> JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and SWT. SWT
>> makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window layout
>> etc. you are used to from your operating system.
>>
>> Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now whereas
>> shoes4 is actively developed.
>>
>> Hope that helped you! =)
>>
>> Shoes on!
>> Tobi
>>
>> On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
>> > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green shoes gem.
>> What would the differences be between this and green shoes.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer <
>> tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello shoesers,
>> >>
>> >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview - the first
>> >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2 years ago.
>> >>
>> >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more modular, all ruby
>> >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>> >>
>> >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>> >>
>> >> Shoes on!
>> >> Tobi
>> >> --
>> >> www.pragtob.info
>> >>
>>
>> --
>> www.pragtob.info
>>
>>
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2014-05-25 @ 06:52
I'll toss in a few confusers to the discussion.  For Linux, swt uses 
GTK( v2,  I believe) for it's native widgets and most likely the layouts 
and themes.  It wouldn't be that hard for someone to write a 
MRI-ruby/GTK2 backend for Shoes4 and skip the the java/swt layer as 
Tobias suggested, a better green shoes. If you need that Peter, don't 
wait for ashbb or anybody else to do it.

My Red Shoes 3.2 implementation has improvements specifically for better 
gem handling, particularly if you build from source. In that case it 
will use what every ruby you have (1.9.3, 2.0, 2.1) and the gems you 
installed with that ruby.  If you download one of the Shoes 3.2 binary 
distributions you can teach it use to Gems form another directory (like 
the systems ruby or your rvm ruby). Native gem handling was a major 
feature of Green Shoes. Now, Red Shoes 3.2 can handle that. If you're 
running Windows and the gem already has a pre-complied binary branch, 
Red Shoes 3.2 doesn't need to compile it.

Red Shoes suffers from slow startup, too.  On Linux, Win7 and OSX. MRI 
ruby is very I/O intensive at startup and Shoes adds to that startup 
load.  Once all the GUI libraries are loaded and cached by the OS, the 
second startup is much faster. That's also been my experience with 
Shoes4.  OSX seems to have the slow hand here but I don't have a 
'standard' OSX configuration that I trust enough to say more.

jRuby was a good/decent/reasonable choice for the Shoes development 
team.  The number of people willing to actually write code for the next 
version of Shoes is very small. A half dozen for  Java and one cranky 
old man for C (me). I looked at ruby-gtk, wxruby, and qt-ruby. I didn't 
see an active community for any of the other MRI based GUI toolkits.  
Lots of ideas, no code. Talking, but not a lot of walking.

MRI has issues - hang out at ruby-core and wait for a flame war in 
Japanese to break out.  jRuby stability is a plus when you see what's 
happening inside MRI. Thankfully Shoes 3.2 and Shoes 4 doesn't depend on 
the minor details of Ruby. That time of caring about Ruby versions and 
machinations and hard choices will arrive in Shoes, someday.

--Cecil

On 05/24/2014 03:17 PM, peter marien wrote:
> All sort of problems requiring gems, paths, load speed, running behind 
> on MRI.
> Getting something done in MRI is easy with JRuby there is extra 
> complexity, not to mention the extra java stuff you are confronted 
> with all the time when you look for help.
> I kind of hate java, it's the opposite of Ruby. JRuby is a good way of 
> ameliorating Java and let it stop there.
> After a change to my code it takes a minute to load with JRuby, 
> through a JAR i'm busy for several minutes, with MRI it executes 
> immediately.
> My code needs ways of dealing in which environment it is executed, yek !
> The JAR way is especially slow and cumbersome.
>
> I use JRuby when i need to distribute as a JAR using Warble while all 
> i need is a decent compiler so that i end up with EXEcutables (i'm on 
> windows).
> And yes, with green_shoes and ocra this is possible but some other 
> gems also cause problems there.
> So i like to use green_shoes for quick projects and rely on QtRuby for 
> the heavier ones.
>
> I appreciate the work the developpers of Shoes 4 do but will probably 
> never use it and i hope some developpers will keep making green shoes 
> better.
>
> require 'green_shoes'
>
> def make_fun
>   ..
> end
>
>
> 2014-05-24 22:15 GMT+02:00 Drew Tardif <drewtardif@gmail.com 
> <mailto:drewtardif@gmail.com>>:
>
>     What makes it a pain?
>
>
>
>
>     On May 24, 2014, at 3:59 PM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com
>     <mailto:daddie88@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>>     As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes
>>     will be developped further.
>>     I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared
>>     with MRI Ruby.
>>     Just my opinion..
>>
>>     Shoes on
>>     Peter
>>
>>
>>     2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer
>>     <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>>     <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>>:
>>
>>         Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most
>>         parts that
>>         I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he
>>         is the one
>>         that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
>>         green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the
>>         same thing.
>>
>>         There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes -
>>         it's been too
>>         long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
>>         bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the same
>>         mostly.
>>
>>         One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is
>>         based upon
>>         MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas
>>         shoes4 uses
>>         JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and
>>         SWT. SWT
>>         makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window
>>         layout
>>         etc. you are used to from your operating system.
>>
>>         Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now
>>         whereas
>>         shoes4 is actively developed.
>>
>>         Hope that helped you! =)
>>
>>         Shoes on!
>>         Tobi
>>
>>         On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
>>         > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green
>>         shoes gem. What would the differences be between this and
>>         green shoes.
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer
>>         <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>>         <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>> wrote:
>>         >
>>         >> Hello shoesers,
>>         >>
>>         >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview -
>>         the first
>>         >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2
>>         years ago.
>>         >>
>>         >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more
>>         modular, all ruby
>>         >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>>         >>
>>         >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>>         >>
>>         >> Shoes on!
>>         >> Tobi
>>         >> --
>>         >> www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>>         >>
>>
>>         --
>>         www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>>
>>
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-25 @ 08:41
Hi everyone and thanks for your emails :-)

Of course, don't let shoes 3.2 get out of the picture, thanks Cecil for
chiming in!

In general I also don't like Java, the language. But the JVM is a great
host to many languages these days, including Clojure, Scala and JRuby.
There isn't a single line of Java code in shoes4. It's all Ruby, all the
time which is great.

One of the major reasons pro JRuby (if I remember correctly) was also
compatibility. E.g. the JVM makes running the same code on all OS easier
for us. We wanted for everyone to be able to enjoy shoes again. Also at
the time we thought that if somebody had figured out cross platform GUI,
it's probably the Java people :-)

Anyhow, as with every decision we made tradeoffs. I hope that some day
we'll have enough backends for shoes4 that everyone can have a backend
that they like and feel comfortable with. That's still a long way ahead
though.

peter: What do you mean by more complexity with JRuby? Writing pure ruby
applications it's exactly the same for all that I know and my use cases.
I can run 1.9.3 compliant scripts easily with JRuby so writing pure ruby
programs it's the same language and everything, don't see the extra
complexity.

Cheers, have a great weekend and shoes on!
Tobi

On 05/25/2014 08:52 AM, Cecil Coupe wrote:
> I'll toss in a few confusers to the discussion.  For Linux, swt uses
> GTK( v2,  I believe) for it's native widgets and most likely the layouts
> and themes.  It wouldn't be that hard for someone to write a
> MRI-ruby/GTK2 backend for Shoes4 and skip the the java/swt layer as
> Tobias suggested, a better green shoes. If you need that Peter, don't
> wait for ashbb or anybody else to do it. 
> 
> My Red Shoes 3.2 implementation has improvements specifically for better
> gem handling, particularly if you build from source. In that case it
> will use what every ruby you have (1.9.3, 2.0, 2.1) and the gems you
> installed with that ruby.  If you download one of the Shoes 3.2 binary
> distributions you can teach it use to Gems form another directory (like
> the systems ruby or your rvm ruby). Native gem handling was a major
> feature of Green Shoes. Now, Red Shoes 3.2 can handle that. If you're
> running Windows and the gem already has a pre-complied binary branch,
> Red Shoes 3.2 doesn't need to compile it.
> 
> Red Shoes suffers from slow startup, too.  On Linux, Win7 and OSX. MRI
> ruby is very I/O intensive at startup and Shoes adds to that startup
> load.  Once all the GUI libraries are loaded and cached by the OS, the
> second startup is much faster. That's also been my experience with
> Shoes4.  OSX seems to have the slow hand here but I don't have a
> 'standard' OSX configuration that I trust enough to say more.
> 
> jRuby was a good/decent/reasonable choice for the Shoes development
> team.  The number of people willing to actually write code for the next
> version of Shoes is very small. A half dozen for  Java and one cranky
> old man for C (me). I looked at ruby-gtk, wxruby, and qt-ruby. I didn't
> see an active community for any of the other MRI based GUI toolkits. 
> Lots of ideas, no code. Talking, but not a lot of walking. 
> 
> MRI has issues - hang out at ruby-core and wait for a flame war in
> Japanese to break out.  jRuby stability is a plus when you see what's
> happening inside MRI. Thankfully Shoes 3.2 and Shoes 4 doesn't depend on
> the minor details of Ruby. That time of caring about Ruby versions and
> machinations and hard choices will arrive in Shoes, someday.
> 
> --Cecil
> 
> On 05/24/2014 03:17 PM, peter marien wrote:
>> All sort of problems requiring gems, paths, load speed, running behind
>> on MRI.
>> Getting something done in MRI is easy with JRuby there is extra
>> complexity, not to mention the extra java stuff you are confronted
>> with all the time when you look for help.
>> I kind of hate java, it's the opposite of Ruby. JRuby is a good way of
>> ameliorating Java and let it stop there.
>> After a change to my code it takes a minute to load with JRuby,
>> through a JAR i'm busy for several minutes, with MRI it executes
>> immediately.
>> My code needs ways of dealing in which environment it is executed, yek !
>> The JAR way is especially slow and cumbersome.
>>
>> I use JRuby when i need to distribute as a JAR using Warble while all
>> i need is a decent compiler so that i end up with EXEcutables (i'm on
>> windows).
>> And yes, with green_shoes and ocra this is possible but some other
>> gems also cause problems there.
>> So i like to use green_shoes for quick projects and rely on QtRuby for
>> the heavier ones.
>>
>> I appreciate the work the developpers of Shoes 4 do but will probably
>> never use it and i hope some developpers will keep making green shoes
>> better.
>>
>> require 'green_shoes'
>>
>> def make_fun
>>   ..
>> end
>>
>>
>> 2014-05-24 22:15 GMT+02:00 Drew Tardif <drewtardif@gmail.com
>> <mailto:drewtardif@gmail.com>>:
>>
>>     What makes it a pain?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On May 24, 2014, at 3:59 PM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:daddie88@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>     As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes
>>>     will be developped further.
>>>     I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared
>>>     with MRI Ruby.
>>>     Just my opinion..
>>>
>>>     Shoes on
>>>     Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>     2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer
>>>     <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>>>     <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>>:
>>>
>>>         Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most
>>>         parts that
>>>         I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he
>>>         is the one
>>>         that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
>>>         green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the
>>>         same thing.
>>>
>>>         There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes -
>>>         it's been too
>>>         long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
>>>         bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the same
>>>         mostly.
>>>
>>>         One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is
>>>         based upon
>>>         MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas
>>>         shoes4 uses
>>>         JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and
>>>         SWT. SWT
>>>         makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window
>>>         layout
>>>         etc. you are used to from your operating system.
>>>
>>>         Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now
>>>         whereas
>>>         shoes4 is actively developed.
>>>
>>>         Hope that helped you! =)
>>>
>>>         Shoes on!
>>>         Tobi
>>>
>>>         On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
>>>         > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green
>>>         shoes gem. What would the differences be between this and
>>>         green shoes.
>>>         >
>>>         >
>>>         >
>>>         >
>>>         > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer
>>>         <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>>>         <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>> wrote:
>>>         >
>>>         >> Hello shoesers,
>>>         >>
>>>         >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview -
>>>         the first
>>>         >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2
>>>         years ago.
>>>         >>
>>>         >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more
>>>         modular, all ruby
>>>         >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
>>>         >>
>>>         >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>>>         >>
>>>         >> Shoes on!
>>>         >> Tobi
>>>         >> --
>>>         >> www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>>>         >>
>>>
>>>         --
>>>         www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 

-- 
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
peter marien
Date:
2014-05-25 @ 09:48
Thanks Cecil, i admire the work you've done on red shoes and will try it in
my first shoes project that comes around.
For the record, i also admire the work on shoes 4, everything that makes
Ruby and Shoes better is a good thing.
I wish i could help on a new green shoes but i'm a medium skilled scripting
gui, only did C# out of curiousness and hate Java as i mentioned before.

The best way to get more Ruby developpers interested is making the
community bigger, more people who use it. The GUI/GEM developpers would
follow.
In my region 95% of users (and thus of the scripters) use windows.
With the graduate decline of the Vbscript (Powershell isn't popular) there
are chances to make the Ruby Community a lot bigger and i won't let an
occasion go by to advise people to try Ruby.
But the reality is that most of the GEM develmoppers are Nix or OSX users,
often there are issues under windows and the help is hard to follow for
them.


2014-05-25 10:41 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer <
tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:

> Hi everyone and thanks for your emails :-)
>
> Of course, don't let shoes 3.2 get out of the picture, thanks Cecil for
> chiming in!
>
> In general I also don't like Java, the language. But the JVM is a great
> host to many languages these days, including Clojure, Scala and JRuby.
> There isn't a single line of Java code in shoes4. It's all Ruby, all the
> time which is great.
>
> One of the major reasons pro JRuby (if I remember correctly) was also
> compatibility. E.g. the JVM makes running the same code on all OS easier
> for us. We wanted for everyone to be able to enjoy shoes again. Also at
> the time we thought that if somebody had figured out cross platform GUI,
> it's probably the Java people :-)
>
> Anyhow, as with every decision we made tradeoffs. I hope that some day
> we'll have enough backends for shoes4 that everyone can have a backend
> that they like and feel comfortable with. That's still a long way ahead
> though.
>
> peter: What do you mean by more complexity with JRuby? Writing pure ruby
> applications it's exactly the same for all that I know and my use cases.
> I can run 1.9.3 compliant scripts easily with JRuby so writing pure ruby
> programs it's the same language and everything, don't see the extra
> complexity.
>
> Cheers, have a great weekend and shoes on!
> Tobi
>
> On 05/25/2014 08:52 AM, Cecil Coupe wrote:
> > I'll toss in a few confusers to the discussion.  For Linux, swt uses
> > GTK( v2,  I believe) for it's native widgets and most likely the layouts
> > and themes.  It wouldn't be that hard for someone to write a
> > MRI-ruby/GTK2 backend for Shoes4 and skip the the java/swt layer as
> > Tobias suggested, a better green shoes. If you need that Peter, don't
> > wait for ashbb or anybody else to do it.
> >
> > My Red Shoes 3.2 implementation has improvements specifically for better
> > gem handling, particularly if you build from source. In that case it
> > will use what every ruby you have (1.9.3, 2.0, 2.1) and the gems you
> > installed with that ruby.  If you download one of the Shoes 3.2 binary
> > distributions you can teach it use to Gems form another directory (like
> > the systems ruby or your rvm ruby). Native gem handling was a major
> > feature of Green Shoes. Now, Red Shoes 3.2 can handle that. If you're
> > running Windows and the gem already has a pre-complied binary branch,
> > Red Shoes 3.2 doesn't need to compile it.
> >
> > Red Shoes suffers from slow startup, too.  On Linux, Win7 and OSX. MRI
> > ruby is very I/O intensive at startup and Shoes adds to that startup
> > load.  Once all the GUI libraries are loaded and cached by the OS, the
> > second startup is much faster. That's also been my experience with
> > Shoes4.  OSX seems to have the slow hand here but I don't have a
> > 'standard' OSX configuration that I trust enough to say more.
> >
> > jRuby was a good/decent/reasonable choice for the Shoes development
> > team.  The number of people willing to actually write code for the next
> > version of Shoes is very small. A half dozen for  Java and one cranky
> > old man for C (me). I looked at ruby-gtk, wxruby, and qt-ruby. I didn't
> > see an active community for any of the other MRI based GUI toolkits.
> > Lots of ideas, no code. Talking, but not a lot of walking.
> >
> > MRI has issues - hang out at ruby-core and wait for a flame war in
> > Japanese to break out.  jRuby stability is a plus when you see what's
> > happening inside MRI. Thankfully Shoes 3.2 and Shoes 4 doesn't depend on
> > the minor details of Ruby. That time of caring about Ruby versions and
> > machinations and hard choices will arrive in Shoes, someday.
> >
> > --Cecil
> >
> > On 05/24/2014 03:17 PM, peter marien wrote:
> >> All sort of problems requiring gems, paths, load speed, running behind
> >> on MRI.
> >> Getting something done in MRI is easy with JRuby there is extra
> >> complexity, not to mention the extra java stuff you are confronted
> >> with all the time when you look for help.
> >> I kind of hate java, it's the opposite of Ruby. JRuby is a good way of
> >> ameliorating Java and let it stop there.
> >> After a change to my code it takes a minute to load with JRuby,
> >> through a JAR i'm busy for several minutes, with MRI it executes
> >> immediately.
> >> My code needs ways of dealing in which environment it is executed, yek !
> >> The JAR way is especially slow and cumbersome.
> >>
> >> I use JRuby when i need to distribute as a JAR using Warble while all
> >> i need is a decent compiler so that i end up with EXEcutables (i'm on
> >> windows).
> >> And yes, with green_shoes and ocra this is possible but some other
> >> gems also cause problems there.
> >> So i like to use green_shoes for quick projects and rely on QtRuby for
> >> the heavier ones.
> >>
> >> I appreciate the work the developpers of Shoes 4 do but will probably
> >> never use it and i hope some developpers will keep making green shoes
> >> better.
> >>
> >> require 'green_shoes'
> >>
> >> def make_fun
> >>   ..
> >> end
> >>
> >>
> >> 2014-05-24 22:15 GMT+02:00 Drew Tardif <drewtardif@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:drewtardif@gmail.com>>:
> >>
> >>     What makes it a pain?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     On May 24, 2014, at 3:59 PM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com
> >>     <mailto:daddie88@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>>     As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes
> >>>     will be developped further.
> >>>     I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared
> >>>     with MRI Ruby.
> >>>     Just my opinion..
> >>>
> >>>     Shoes on
> >>>     Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer
> >>>     <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
> >>>     <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>>:
> >>>
> >>>         Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most
> >>>         parts that
> >>>         I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he
> >>>         is the one
> >>>         that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
> >>>         green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the
> >>>         same thing.
> >>>
> >>>         There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes -
> >>>         it's been too
> >>>         long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
> >>>         bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the
> same
> >>>         mostly.
> >>>
> >>>         One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is
> >>>         based upon
> >>>         MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas
> >>>         shoes4 uses
> >>>         JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and
> >>>         SWT. SWT
> >>>         makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window
> >>>         layout
> >>>         etc. you are used to from your operating system.
> >>>
> >>>         Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now
> >>>         whereas
> >>>         shoes4 is actively developed.
> >>>
> >>>         Hope that helped you! =)
> >>>
> >>>         Shoes on!
> >>>         Tobi
> >>>
> >>>         On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
> >>>         > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green
> >>>         shoes gem. What would the differences be between this and
> >>>         green shoes.
> >>>         >
> >>>         >
> >>>         >
> >>>         >
> >>>         > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer
> >>>         <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
> >>>         <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>> wrote:
> >>>         >
> >>>         >> Hello shoesers,
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview -
> >>>         the first
> >>>         >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2
> >>>         years ago.
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more
> >>>         modular, all ruby
> >>>         >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for yourselves:
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> Shoes on!
> >>>         >> Tobi
> >>>         >> --
> >>>         >> www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
> >>>         >>
> >>>
> >>>         --
> >>>         www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> www.pragtob.info
>
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2014-05-26 @ 01:41
On 05/25/2014 03:48 AM, peter marien wrote:
>
> The best way to get more Ruby developpers interested is making the 
> community bigger, more people who use it. The GUI/GEM developpers 
> would follow.
> In my region 95% of users (and thus of the scripters) use windows.
> With the graduate decline of the Vbscript (Powershell isn't popular) 
> there are chances to make the Ruby Community a lot bigger and i won't 
> let an occasion go by to advise people to try Ruby.
> But the reality is that most of the GEM develmoppers are Nix or OSX 
> users, often there are issues under windows and the help is hard to 
> follow for them.

MRI Ruby for Windows is the red haired step child of the family. Red 
shoes is dependent on RubyInstaller (Luis  Lavena and team) and their 
devkit, which depends on MinGW.  Popular gems are starting to show up 
with Windows (MinGW) precompiled binaries thanks to Luis's Rakecompiler 
so the nix and osx folks can easily write gems and pre-compile then for 
Windows (and Shoes 3.2 or Rails or Ruby scripts can use them).  It's 
never been better for Ruby on Windows but it's still the step child.

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
David Eastman
Date:
2014-05-25 @ 14:30
I think the decisions made by the shoes 4 team over the years were pretty
sound. Red Shoes was simply unstable in Windows (before anything Cecil
cooked up that is). I wasn't seeing a lot of well maintained GUI toolkits
for ruby - perhaps Gosu maybe.

The JVM has proved its worth over the years, and I'm not that surprised it
was chosen when stability was an issue. Forgot Java, this is all about the
virtual machine.

I think a C# / IronRuby approach would probably satisfy Windows well, but I
don't see why in today's world the emphasis should necessarily be on
Windows. I'm so glad that the different colour shoes are still being buffed.

But one issue that has always hung around Shoes - who is the audience? Is
it just educational? For small apps? Or a real steady GUI? A developer toy
for other developers? This is why there has been so many disparate views
on, for example, packaging. The ghost of _why has not helped us out here.

The bottom line is that Shoes is a big healthy tree of development, but one
day it might need pruning.


On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 10:48 AM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Cecil, i admire the work you've done on red shoes and will try it
> in my first shoes project that comes around.
> For the record, i also admire the work on shoes 4, everything that makes
> Ruby and Shoes better is a good thing.
> I wish i could help on a new green shoes but i'm a medium skilled
> scripting gui, only did C# out of curiousness and hate Java as i mentioned
> before.
>
> The best way to get more Ruby developpers interested is making the
> community bigger, more people who use it. The GUI/GEM developpers would
> follow.
> In my region 95% of users (and thus of the scripters) use windows.
> With the graduate decline of the Vbscript (Powershell isn't popular) there
> are chances to make the Ruby Community a lot bigger and i won't let an
> occasion go by to advise people to try Ruby.
> But the reality is that most of the GEM develmoppers are Nix or OSX users,
> often there are issues under windows and the help is hard to follow for
> them.
>
>
> 2014-05-25 10:41 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer <
> tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>:
>
> Hi everyone and thanks for your emails :-)
>>
>> Of course, don't let shoes 3.2 get out of the picture, thanks Cecil for
>> chiming in!
>>
>> In general I also don't like Java, the language. But the JVM is a great
>> host to many languages these days, including Clojure, Scala and JRuby.
>> There isn't a single line of Java code in shoes4. It's all Ruby, all the
>> time which is great.
>>
>> One of the major reasons pro JRuby (if I remember correctly) was also
>> compatibility. E.g. the JVM makes running the same code on all OS easier
>> for us. We wanted for everyone to be able to enjoy shoes again. Also at
>> the time we thought that if somebody had figured out cross platform GUI,
>> it's probably the Java people :-)
>>
>> Anyhow, as with every decision we made tradeoffs. I hope that some day
>> we'll have enough backends for shoes4 that everyone can have a backend
>> that they like and feel comfortable with. That's still a long way ahead
>> though.
>>
>> peter: What do you mean by more complexity with JRuby? Writing pure ruby
>> applications it's exactly the same for all that I know and my use cases.
>> I can run 1.9.3 compliant scripts easily with JRuby so writing pure ruby
>> programs it's the same language and everything, don't see the extra
>> complexity.
>>
>> Cheers, have a great weekend and shoes on!
>> Tobi
>>
>> On 05/25/2014 08:52 AM, Cecil Coupe wrote:
>> > I'll toss in a few confusers to the discussion.  For Linux, swt uses
>> > GTK( v2,  I believe) for it's native widgets and most likely the layouts
>> > and themes.  It wouldn't be that hard for someone to write a
>> > MRI-ruby/GTK2 backend for Shoes4 and skip the the java/swt layer as
>> > Tobias suggested, a better green shoes. If you need that Peter, don't
>> > wait for ashbb or anybody else to do it.
>> >
>> > My Red Shoes 3.2 implementation has improvements specifically for better
>> > gem handling, particularly if you build from source. In that case it
>> > will use what every ruby you have (1.9.3, 2.0, 2.1) and the gems you
>> > installed with that ruby.  If you download one of the Shoes 3.2 binary
>> > distributions you can teach it use to Gems form another directory (like
>> > the systems ruby or your rvm ruby). Native gem handling was a major
>> > feature of Green Shoes. Now, Red Shoes 3.2 can handle that. If you're
>> > running Windows and the gem already has a pre-complied binary branch,
>> > Red Shoes 3.2 doesn't need to compile it.
>> >
>> > Red Shoes suffers from slow startup, too.  On Linux, Win7 and OSX. MRI
>> > ruby is very I/O intensive at startup and Shoes adds to that startup
>> > load.  Once all the GUI libraries are loaded and cached by the OS, the
>> > second startup is much faster. That's also been my experience with
>> > Shoes4.  OSX seems to have the slow hand here but I don't have a
>> > 'standard' OSX configuration that I trust enough to say more.
>> >
>> > jRuby was a good/decent/reasonable choice for the Shoes development
>> > team.  The number of people willing to actually write code for the next
>> > version of Shoes is very small. A half dozen for  Java and one cranky
>> > old man for C (me). I looked at ruby-gtk, wxruby, and qt-ruby. I didn't
>> > see an active community for any of the other MRI based GUI toolkits.
>> > Lots of ideas, no code. Talking, but not a lot of walking.
>> >
>> > MRI has issues - hang out at ruby-core and wait for a flame war in
>> > Japanese to break out.  jRuby stability is a plus when you see what's
>> > happening inside MRI. Thankfully Shoes 3.2 and Shoes 4 doesn't depend on
>> > the minor details of Ruby. That time of caring about Ruby versions and
>> > machinations and hard choices will arrive in Shoes, someday.
>> >
>> > --Cecil
>> >
>> > On 05/24/2014 03:17 PM, peter marien wrote:
>> >> All sort of problems requiring gems, paths, load speed, running behind
>> >> on MRI.
>> >> Getting something done in MRI is easy with JRuby there is extra
>> >> complexity, not to mention the extra java stuff you are confronted
>> >> with all the time when you look for help.
>> >> I kind of hate java, it's the opposite of Ruby. JRuby is a good way of
>> >> ameliorating Java and let it stop there.
>> >> After a change to my code it takes a minute to load with JRuby,
>> >> through a JAR i'm busy for several minutes, with MRI it executes
>> >> immediately.
>> >> My code needs ways of dealing in which environment it is executed, yek
>> !
>> >> The JAR way is especially slow and cumbersome.
>> >>
>> >> I use JRuby when i need to distribute as a JAR using Warble while all
>> >> i need is a decent compiler so that i end up with EXEcutables (i'm on
>> >> windows).
>> >> And yes, with green_shoes and ocra this is possible but some other
>> >> gems also cause problems there.
>> >> So i like to use green_shoes for quick projects and rely on QtRuby for
>> >> the heavier ones.
>> >>
>> >> I appreciate the work the developpers of Shoes 4 do but will probably
>> >> never use it and i hope some developpers will keep making green shoes
>> >> better.
>> >>
>> >> require 'green_shoes'
>> >>
>> >> def make_fun
>> >>   ..
>> >> end
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2014-05-24 22:15 GMT+02:00 Drew Tardif <drewtardif@gmail.com
>> >> <mailto:drewtardif@gmail.com>>:
>> >>
>> >>     What makes it a pain?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>     On May 24, 2014, at 3:59 PM, peter marien <daddie88@gmail.com
>> >>     <mailto:daddie88@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>     As a MRI Ruby - green_shoes user i sincerely hope green shoes
>> >>>     will be developped further.
>> >>>     I use JRuby when i need to but it's a pain in the *s compared
>> >>>     with MRI Ruby.
>> >>>     Just my opinion..
>> >>>
>> >>>     Shoes on
>> >>>     Peter
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>     2014-05-24 16:20 GMT+02:00 Tobias Pfeiffer
>> >>>     <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>> >>>     <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>>:
>> >>>
>> >>>         Your green_shoes code should run fine with shoes4 for most
>> >>>         parts that
>> >>>         I'm aware of. Ashbb probably knows more about this since he
>> >>>         is the one
>> >>>         that basically did green_shoes. But in general both shoes4 and
>> >>>         green_shoes implement the Shoes DSL - e.g. aim at doing the
>> >>>         same thing.
>> >>>
>> >>>         There might be different bugs in shoes4 and green_shoes -
>> >>>         it's been too
>> >>>         long since I last used green_shoes - I'm not too aware of
>> >>>         bugs/differences. But as it is the same DSL it should be the
>> same
>> >>>         mostly.
>> >>>
>> >>>         One of the major differences though is that green_shoes is
>> >>>         based upon
>> >>>         MRI (the standard ruby implementation) with GTK whereas
>> >>>         shoes4 uses
>> >>>         JRuby (a ruby implementation on the Java Virtual Machine) and
>> >>>         SWT. SWT
>> >>>         makes for a more native look and feel, e.g. using the window
>> >>>         layout
>> >>>         etc. you are used to from your operating system.
>> >>>
>> >>>         Furthermore green_shoes isn't actively developed right now
>> >>>         whereas
>> >>>         shoes4 is actively developed.
>> >>>
>> >>>         Hope that helped you! =)
>> >>>
>> >>>         Shoes on!
>> >>>         Tobi
>> >>>
>> >>>         On Fri 23 May 2014 10:49:23 AM CEST, Drew Tardif wrote:
>> >>>         > I started learning shoes with a tutorial using the green
>> >>>         shoes gem. What would the differences be between this and
>> >>>         green shoes.
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         > On May 10, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer
>> >>>         <tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de
>> >>>         <mailto:tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de>> wrote:
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         >> Hello shoesers,
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> hope you're doing good. We just released shoes 4 preview -
>> >>>         the first
>> >>>         >> shoes 4 release since the project was initiated almost 2
>> >>>         years ago.
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> It re-implements most of the shoes3 features, is more
>> >>>         modular, all ruby
>> >>>         >> and the first backend uses JRuby & SWT. Read for
>> yourselves:
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> http://shoesrb.com/2014/05/10/shoes-4pre1-release.html
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> Shoes on!
>> >>>         >> Tobi
>> >>>         >> --
>> >>>         >> www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>
>> >>>         --
>> >>>         www.pragtob.info <http://www.pragtob.info>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> --
>> www.pragtob.info
>>
>>
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2014-05-26 @ 02:59
On 05/25/2014 08:30 AM, David Eastman wrote:
> But one issue that has always hung around Shoes - who is the audience? 
> Is it just educational? For small apps? Or a real steady GUI? A 
> developer toy for other developers? This is why there has been so many 
> disparate views on, for example, packaging. The ghost of _why has not 
> helped us out here.
>
> The bottom line is that Shoes is a big healthy tree of development, 
> but one day it might need pruning.
>
Actually, it's self pruning.  ashbb doesn't appear interested in doing 
much with green shoes (or shoes in general).  I come and go like a bad 
penny and I'm just as likely to get distracted by shiny news things as 
the next person.  The other colors of Shoes folks are working on Shoes 4 
or have disappeared. The tree is already pruned.

When hackety hack runs on either 3.2 or 4, then it might be called 
viable for large scale efforts but I don't expect that to happen w/o a 
champion or two or three.  the Shoes 3.2 manual will run the little 'run 
this' code snippets so it's still a educational tool. I'm not an 
educator, but I think its neat feature so I want it to work and the 
funky search.

The manual shows it's multi-author heritage. It needs a lot of work to 
be internally consistent for educational purposes.  Like hackety hack, 
when someone steps up to do that work, I'll help as best I can but 
education is not on my priority list.

Right now, I'd call Shoes a developers toy, good for small quick, not 
too clever GUI's.  Shoes4 has potential for more complex layouts and 
jRuby + Java brings a lot on 'enterprise' things with it, if that's 
where they want to go.  That's not something I personally care about. 
I've done my time in 'enterprise'. I'll let the 'young people' deal with 
that.  I'm just a maintenance person.

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
David Eastman
Date:
2014-05-26 @ 15:04
>I'm just a maintenance person.
Not sure anyone buys that humble description Mr Coupe :-)

Agree that JRuby/JVM drags quite a bit of enterprise with it, I think the
words against Java reflect that. I'm technically an enterprise Java
developer (based on current profile) who recognises ruby as the best way to
do small standalone apps and small web clients. Hence I can see the irony
involved in some of this.



On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 3:59 AM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net> wrote:

>
> On 05/25/2014 08:30 AM, David Eastman wrote:
> > But one issue that has always hung around Shoes - who is the audience?
> > Is it just educational? For small apps? Or a real steady GUI? A
> > developer toy for other developers? This is why there has been so many
> > disparate views on, for example, packaging. The ghost of _why has not
> > helped us out here.
> >
> > The bottom line is that Shoes is a big healthy tree of development,
> > but one day it might need pruning.
> >
> Actually, it's self pruning.  ashbb doesn't appear interested in doing
> much with green shoes (or shoes in general).  I come and go like a bad
> penny and I'm just as likely to get distracted by shiny news things as
> the next person.  The other colors of Shoes folks are working on Shoes 4
> or have disappeared. The tree is already pruned.
>
> When hackety hack runs on either 3.2 or 4, then it might be called
> viable for large scale efforts but I don't expect that to happen w/o a
> champion or two or three.  the Shoes 3.2 manual will run the little 'run
> this' code snippets so it's still a educational tool. I'm not an
> educator, but I think its neat feature so I want it to work and the
> funky search.
>
> The manual shows it's multi-author heritage. It needs a lot of work to
> be internally consistent for educational purposes.  Like hackety hack,
> when someone steps up to do that work, I'll help as best I can but
> education is not on my priority list.
>
> Right now, I'd call Shoes a developers toy, good for small quick, not
> too clever GUI's.  Shoes4 has potential for more complex layouts and
> jRuby + Java brings a lot on 'enterprise' things with it, if that's
> where they want to go.  That's not something I personally care about.
> I've done my time in 'enterprise'. I'll let the 'young people' deal with
> that.  I'm just a maintenance person.
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-26 @ 15:47
I think it's sad that people think of enterprise when they think of
JRuby. JRuby isn't Java. Yes it allows for Ruby in the enterprise world
- a spark of light in that dark world if you will :) JRuby is also for
students that don't want to work with Java and instead just package a
JRuby JAR (shhh don't tell anyone!).

JRuby is still Ruby. It's still fun. Most companies I know that use
JRuby (like TravisCI) aren't enterprisey at all. Neither is shoes. The
decision to go with JRuby as the first backend had nothing to do with
enterprise.

Even with a JRuby backend shoes won't go in an enterprise direction.
That's not what it's meant for. Shoes is meant for fun. Fun little
applications. It's there to teach people how to program with or without
HacketyHack. Build little games. It's there to build little programs
fast and easy with a lot of joy.

I wanted to have a pomodoro tracker for myself so I built one in shoes.
Because that's painless and easy.

Just a couple of days ago I saw someone who built a fun little game in
shoes. That was awesome.

My main motivation stems from people who learned to code through
shoes/hacketyhack. Some of them are on this mailing list and **I thank
you enormously** for sharing your stories. Huge motivation boosters for me.

Personally for a long time I didn't see anyone earning any money with
writing shoes apps at all. However when I talk with people at
conferences (mostly freelancers) they say they'd love shoes because they
build a script for a client and the client would just like to have a
tiny GUI on top of that.

That's not my main concern for shoes though. It's fun. And offering
people the ability to write GUI system in a language they like - because
ruby is really lacking GUI capabilities if you ask me.

So yeah those are my condensed thoughts on what shoes is good for and
about "enterprise".

Shoes on!
Tobi

On 05/26/2014 05:04 PM, David Eastman wrote:
>>I'm just a maintenance person.
> Not sure anyone buys that humble description Mr Coupe :-)
> 
> Agree that JRuby/JVM drags quite a bit of enterprise with it, I think
> the words against Java reflect that. I'm technically an enterprise Java
> developer (based on current profile) who recognises ruby as the best way
> to do small standalone apps and small web clients. Hence I can see the
> irony involved in some of this.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 3:59 AM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net
> <mailto:ccoupe@cableone.net>> wrote:
> 
> 
>     On 05/25/2014 08:30 AM, David Eastman wrote:
>     > But one issue that has always hung around Shoes - who is the audience?
>     > Is it just educational? For small apps? Or a real steady GUI? A
>     > developer toy for other developers? This is why there has been so many
>     > disparate views on, for example, packaging. The ghost of _why has not
>     > helped us out here.
>     >
>     > The bottom line is that Shoes is a big healthy tree of development,
>     > but one day it might need pruning.
>     >
>     Actually, it's self pruning.  ashbb doesn't appear interested in doing
>     much with green shoes (or shoes in general).  I come and go like a bad
>     penny and I'm just as likely to get distracted by shiny news things as
>     the next person.  The other colors of Shoes folks are working on Shoes 4
>     or have disappeared. The tree is already pruned.
> 
>     When hackety hack runs on either 3.2 or 4, then it might be called
>     viable for large scale efforts but I don't expect that to happen w/o a
>     champion or two or three.  the Shoes 3.2 manual will run the little 'run
>     this' code snippets so it's still a educational tool. I'm not an
>     educator, but I think its neat feature so I want it to work and the
>     funky search.
> 
>     The manual shows it's multi-author heritage. It needs a lot of work to
>     be internally consistent for educational purposes.  Like hackety hack,
>     when someone steps up to do that work, I'll help as best I can but
>     education is not on my priority list.
> 
>     Right now, I'd call Shoes a developers toy, good for small quick, not
>     too clever GUI's.  Shoes4 has potential for more complex layouts and
>     jRuby + Java brings a lot on 'enterprise' things with it, if that's
>     where they want to go.  That's not something I personally care about.
>     I've done my time in 'enterprise'. I'll let the 'young people' deal with
>     that.  I'm just a maintenance person.
> 
> 

-- 
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2014-05-27 @ 03:22
On 05/26/2014 09:47 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
> That's not my main concern for shoes though. It's fun. And offering
> people the ability to write GUI system in a language they like - because
> ruby is really lacking GUI capabilities if you ask me.
I'll never mention the 'E word' again, Tobias. :-) I have a fondness for 
the hacker/maker ethos - it reminds me of my early days with the KIM-I 
and Apple II. I happened to run across a great example of why I want to 
keep Shoes 3 working so I wrote a blog post that also demonstrates some 
Shoes 3.2 capabilities.
http://shoes.mvmanila.com/2014/05/26/this-is-why-shoes-3-2-exists/

Would anyone be offended if I update the Wiki pages to mention Shoes 
3.2? Tastefully, of course.

--Cecil

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Tobias Pfeiffer
Date:
2014-05-27 @ 07:57
:) Cool blog post!

Cobbler was among the things you built right? Looks nifty. A little gem 
manager in shoes, probably could need that for shoes4 as well.

I'd be happy if you edited the wikis to mention shoes 3.2! I'd also 
like to see a merge, but we don't have many c-folks around for review 
and maybe some want to leave vintage shoes alone.

How about we give shoes 3.2 its own repository on the shoes 
organization? I know you don't like git that much but that way it'd 
finally have its space on the github org/look a bit more official. Is 
that something you'd want? :)

On Tue 27 May 2014 05:22:04 AM CEST, Cecil Coupe wrote:
>
> On 05/26/2014 09:47 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
>> That's not my main concern for shoes though. It's fun. And offering
>> people the ability to write GUI system in a language they like - because
>> ruby is really lacking GUI capabilities if you ask me.
> I'll never mention the 'E word' again, Tobias. :-) I have a fondness for
> the hacker/maker ethos - it reminds me of my early days with the KIM-I
> and Apple II. I happened to run across a great example of why I want to
> keep Shoes 3 working so I wrote a blog post that also demonstrates some
> Shoes 3.2 capabilities.
> http://shoes.mvmanila.com/2014/05/26/this-is-why-shoes-3-2-exists/
>
> Would anyone be offended if I update the Wiki pages to mention Shoes
> 3.2? Tastefully, of course.
>
> --Cecil

--
www.pragtob.info

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Drew Tardif
Date:
2014-05-27 @ 21:22
Though I think this release is great, I agree with what Peter says.
green-shoes has a much larger userbase and does not require that people
install things other than just pure Ruby to use it, so it saddens me that
ashbb left it behind. I can only hope someone else picks up development of
the green-shoes gem.

This really is great though, I mean it. Shoes is perfect for ew budding
developers
and it's easy for beginners running Windows/OSX to install it. It's great
for them. Thank you so much for your hard work.


On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer <
tobias.pfeiffer@student.hpi.uni-potsdam.de> wrote:

> :) Cool blog post!
>
> Cobbler was among the things you built right? Looks nifty. A little gem
> manager in shoes, probably could need that for shoes4 as well.
>
> I'd be happy if you edited the wikis to mention shoes 3.2! I'd also
> like to see a merge, but we don't have many c-folks around for review
> and maybe some want to leave vintage shoes alone.
>
> How about we give shoes 3.2 its own repository on the shoes
> organization? I know you don't like git that much but that way it'd
> finally have its space on the github org/look a bit more official. Is
> that something you'd want? :)
>
> On Tue 27 May 2014 05:22:04 AM CEST, Cecil Coupe wrote:
> >
> > On 05/26/2014 09:47 AM, Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
> >> That's not my main concern for shoes though. It's fun. And offering
> >> people the ability to write GUI system in a language they like - because
> >> ruby is really lacking GUI capabilities if you ask me.
> > I'll never mention the 'E word' again, Tobias. :-) I have a fondness for
> > the hacker/maker ethos - it reminds me of my early days with the KIM-I
> > and Apple II. I happened to run across a great example of why I want to
> > keep Shoes 3 working so I wrote a blog post that also demonstrates some
> > Shoes 3.2 capabilities.
> > http://shoes.mvmanila.com/2014/05/26/this-is-why-shoes-3-2-exists/
> >
> > Would anyone be offended if I update the Wiki pages to mention Shoes
> > 3.2? Tastefully, of course.
> >
> > --Cecil
>
> --
> www.pragtob.info
>
>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Sebastjan Hribar
Date:
2014-05-26 @ 18:54
Hi guys,

here's my two cents ...

I can honestly say that my ruby experience wouldn't be the same without 
shoes ... or without your help:)

To me, shoes is everything it's been said so far: an opportunity to 
learn and get to know different concepts, a fun tool to make games and I 
also wear them to work so my scripts look cool:-).

It's ease of use and power keep me motivated all the time.

Thank you all who work hard to make shoes available!

Regards,

seba

love shoes!



On 26. 05. 2014 17:47, Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
> I think it's sad that people think of enterprise when they think of
> JRuby. JRuby isn't Java. Yes it allows for Ruby in the enterprise world
> - a spark of light in that dark world if you will :) JRuby is also for
> students that don't want to work with Java and instead just package a
> JRuby JAR (shhh don't tell anyone!).
>
> JRuby is still Ruby. It's still fun. Most companies I know that use
> JRuby (like TravisCI) aren't enterprisey at all. Neither is shoes. The
> decision to go with JRuby as the first backend had nothing to do with
> enterprise.
>
> Even with a JRuby backend shoes won't go in an enterprise direction.
> That's not what it's meant for. Shoes is meant for fun. Fun little
> applications. It's there to teach people how to program with or without
> HacketyHack. Build little games. It's there to build little programs
> fast and easy with a lot of joy.
>
> I wanted to have a pomodoro tracker for myself so I built one in shoes.
> Because that's painless and easy.
>
> Just a couple of days ago I saw someone who built a fun little game in
> shoes. That was awesome.
>
> My main motivation stems from people who learned to code through
> shoes/hacketyhack. Some of them are on this mailing list and **I thank
> you enormously** for sharing your stories. Huge motivation boosters for me.
>
> Personally for a long time I didn't see anyone earning any money with
> writing shoes apps at all. However when I talk with people at
> conferences (mostly freelancers) they say they'd love shoes because they
> build a script for a client and the client would just like to have a
> tiny GUI on top of that.
>
> That's not my main concern for shoes though. It's fun. And offering
> people the ability to write GUI system in a language they like - because
> ruby is really lacking GUI capabilities if you ask me.
>
> So yeah those are my condensed thoughts on what shoes is good for and
> about "enterprise".
>
> Shoes on!
> Tobi
>
> On 05/26/2014 05:04 PM, David Eastman wrote:
>>> I'm just a maintenance person.
>> Not sure anyone buys that humble description Mr Coupe :-)
>>
>> Agree that JRuby/JVM drags quite a bit of enterprise with it, I think
>> the words against Java reflect that. I'm technically an enterprise Java
>> developer (based on current profile) who recognises ruby as the best way
>> to do small standalone apps and small web clients. Hence I can see the
>> irony involved in some of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 3:59 AM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net
>> <mailto:ccoupe@cableone.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>      On 05/25/2014 08:30 AM, David Eastman wrote:
>>      > But one issue that has always hung around Shoes - who is the audience?
>>      > Is it just educational? For small apps? Or a real steady GUI? A
>>      > developer toy for other developers? This is why there has been so many
>>      > disparate views on, for example, packaging. The ghost of _why has not
>>      > helped us out here.
>>      >
>>      > The bottom line is that Shoes is a big healthy tree of development,
>>      > but one day it might need pruning.
>>      >
>>      Actually, it's self pruning.  ashbb doesn't appear interested in doing
>>      much with green shoes (or shoes in general).  I come and go like a bad
>>      penny and I'm just as likely to get distracted by shiny news things as
>>      the next person.  The other colors of Shoes folks are working on Shoes 4
>>      or have disappeared. The tree is already pruned.
>>
>>      When hackety hack runs on either 3.2 or 4, then it might be called
>>      viable for large scale efforts but I don't expect that to happen w/o a
>>      champion or two or three.  the Shoes 3.2 manual will run the little 'run
>>      this' code snippets so it's still a educational tool. I'm not an
>>      educator, but I think its neat feature so I want it to work and the
>>      funky search.
>>
>>      The manual shows it's multi-author heritage. It needs a lot of work to
>>      be internally consistent for educational purposes.  Like hackety hack,
>>      when someone steps up to do that work, I'll help as best I can but
>>      education is not on my priority list.
>>
>>      Right now, I'd call Shoes a developers toy, good for small quick, not
>>      too clever GUI's.  Shoes4 has potential for more complex layouts and
>>      jRuby + Java brings a lot on 'enterprise' things with it, if that's
>>      where they want to go.  That's not something I personally care about.
>>      I've done my time in 'enterprise'. I'll let the 'young people' deal with
>>      that.  I'm just a maintenance person.
>>
>>

Re: [shoes] shoes 4 preview released!

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2014-05-27 @ 02:13
On 05/26/2014 09:04 AM, David Eastman wrote:
> >I'm just a maintenance person.
> Not sure anyone buys that humble description Mr Coupe :-)
>
OK, you got me. I'm an opinionated, often wrong  mechanic. ;-)