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Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Peter Fitzgibbons
Date:
2012-03-31 @ 13:56
HI Folks,

We've had quite a rout w/ Walkabout and trying to get all the compilations
to run, figure out the plan for gems, how to deal with the JRuby forks.

Here is my proposal :
1. Walkabout : RedShoes compilation might be close.  We need to review the
issues list that Steve curated, and then hammer it out.  It seems that the
compilations could be released as they exist, with generous messaging
around what works with what.
2. Future : (Ra? I forget the next name)  Jruby.  I think the next path
should be one of the Jruby shoes.  I have the starting of a "framework".
I'm not sure what a good migration plan looks like.  My plan constituted a
wholesale rewrite, using the samples as reference-design.   Maybe
GreenShoes or PurpleShoes could be selected as a starting point, and move
toward the framework-plugin design that I started.

These are ideas.  Thanks to the community for being so supportive of
discourse and dialogue.

Shoes On
Peter Fitzgibbons
(847) 859-9550
Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2012-03-31 @ 15:02
I am all about this overall. As long as JRuby eventually has
packaging, it can 100% replace Red Shoes for me. That was always the
sticking point with Green.


> I have the starting of a "framework".
> I'm not sure what a good migration plan looks like.  My plan constituted a
> wholesale rewrite, using the samples as reference-design.   Maybe GreenShoes
> or PurpleShoes could be selected as a starting point, and move toward the
> framework-plugin design that I started.

Really, other than Hackety, which I want to do a big re-write of
anyway, I don't think we need to worry too much about 100%
compatibility with Red. We don't have that many users, tbh, and any
major version can break backwards compatibility. I'd rather see us
build what we _want_, and then maybe make Red catch up, then try to
tie it 100% to the past.

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Peter Fitzgibbons
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 01:50
Kind of need some specs for packaging.
Where should I look for the "expected" behaviour for packaging?

As far as cross-platform runtime, there are a couple of examples in Redcar
IDE by Dan Lucraft.


Peter Fitzgibbons
(847) 859-9550
Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 01:53
> Where should I look for the "expected" behaviour for packaging?

I get a .exe, .app, and ... something on Linux. I double click them
and my app runs. One file, no deps.

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Peter Fitzgibbons
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 01:55
Can it be a .bat and .sh ?
"one file" as in a self-extracting .sh, or "one file" as in .jar?

Peter Fitzgibbons
(847) 859-9550
Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com


On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com>wrote:

> > Where should I look for the "expected" behaviour for packaging?
>
> I get a .exe, .app, and ... something on Linux. I double click them
> and my app runs. One file, no deps.
>

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 02:55
I'm aware of one cross platform java app that doesn't have terrible
hurdles to install. Vuze, aka Azerus.  Long ago I wrote a Java app that
ran on Windows (98!), OSX, and Linux. Still runs on Linux but it's been
a couple of years since I last tried it.  I needed a .bat file, .sh
script and a properly setup plist for OSX, and a separate readme for
each platform. 

I think JWS was supposed to handle these things but I grew tired of Java
by then.

On Sat, 2012-03-31 at 20:55 -0500, Peter Fitzgibbons wrote:
> Can it be a .bat and .sh ?
> "one file" as in a self-extracting .sh, or "one file" as in .jar?
> 
> Peter Fitzgibbons
> (847) 859-9550
> Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
> IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
> IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Steve Klabnik
> <steve@steveklabnik.com> wrote:
>         > Where should I look for the "expected" behaviour for
>         packaging?
>         
>         
>         I get a .exe, .app, and ... something on Linux. I double click
>         them
>         and my app runs. One file, no deps.
> 

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 02:14
The primary use case is Hackety. Beginners need to download one file,
and be able to double click on it and have it run. .bat and .sh might
work? I'm not sure. It depends.

Currently, those files are .exe and .app. I think if you double click
on a .jar it runs, right?

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Peter Fitzgibbons
<peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can it be a .bat and .sh ?
> "one file" as in a self-extracting .sh, or "one file" as in .jar?

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Eric Watson
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 02:42
It seems like if we can package shoes apps into a .jar, it will be 
possible to wrap the .jar inside a .exe and/or a .app

http://jsmooth.sourceforge.net/

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Java/Conceptual/Jar_Bundler/Packaging/Packaging.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40000884-CH203-BABJGADF
http://www.joshondesign.com/2011/09/22/hidden-treasure-appbundler/

Eric

On Mar 31, 2012, at 9:14 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com> wrote:

> The primary use case is Hackety. Beginners need to download one file,
> and be able to double click on it and have it run. .bat and .sh might
> work? I'm not sure. It depends.
> 
> Currently, those files are .exe and .app. I think if you double click
> on a .jar it runs, right?
> 
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Peter Fitzgibbons
> <peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can it be a .bat and .sh ?
>> "one file" as in a self-extracting .sh, or "one file" as in .jar?

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 03:05
On Sat, 2012-03-31 at 21:42 -0500, Eric Watson wrote:
> It seems like if we can package shoes apps into a .jar, it will be 
possible to wrap the .jar inside a .exe and/or a .app
If the jar includes JRuby.jar

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Peter Fitzgibbons
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 14:25
I'm fishing for a path forward here.

Are we looking for a .dmg or .msi, which then plants the appropriate files
to run a .exe or .app or .sh(linux)?
Do we package JRE, or detect and download/install?

I think there is enough knowledge/experience in this group, and enough
tools "out there" for us to accomplish the packaging goal, once we pick a
target.

Also, once we pick the target, who is available to assist in coding the
solution?


Peter Fitzgibbons
(847) 859-9550
Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com


On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2012-03-31 at 21:42 -0500, Eric Watson wrote:
> > It seems like if we can package shoes apps into a .jar, it will be
> possible to wrap the .jar inside a .exe and/or a .app
> If the jar includes JRuby.jar
>
>

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 14:32
> Are we looking for a .dmg or .msi, which then plants the appropriate files
> to run a .exe or .app or .sh(linux)?

If we can make a .exe or .app or .sh, the packaging tools for .dmg and
.msi Just Work, other than some configuration.

> Do we package JRE, or detect and download/install?

I would PREFER package, but I can see download/install too.
Historically, the bundle has everything you need in it, no
dependencies whatsoever. I don't know how big the JRE is though.
Historically, this overhead has been about 30-50MB.

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Peter Fitzgibbons
Date:
2012-04-02 @ 02:22
DOH!  Too many options!
Read this : http://www.excelsior-usa.com/articles/java-to-exe.html

I have CC'd Daniel Lucraft on this.  Daniel, if you'd like to reply to me,
I'll repost your msg to the Shoes ML

Peter Fitzgibbons
(847) 859-9550
Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com


On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com>wrote:

> > Are we looking for a .dmg or .msi, which then plants the appropriate
> files
> > to run a .exe or .app or .sh(linux)?
>
> If we can make a .exe or .app or .sh, the packaging tools for .dmg and
> .msi Just Work, other than some configuration.
>
> > Do we package JRE, or detect and download/install?
>
> I would PREFER package, but I can see download/install too.
> Historically, the bundle has everything you need in it, no
> dependencies whatsoever. I don't know how big the JRE is though.
> Historically, this overhead has been about 30-50MB.
>

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Eric Watson
Date:
2012-04-02 @ 02:49
On Apr 1, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Peter Fitzgibbons wrote:

> DOH!  Too many options!
> Read this : http://www.excelsior-usa.com/articles/java-to-exe.html

I think this is the option we want for windows:

http://www.excelsior-usa.com/articles/java-to-exe.html#launch

(btw, did you see the prices on some of those products? $2000, $4000? Yikes!)

For osx, wrapping a .jar in a .app should be pretty straightforward, I 
think. Very similar to what we're doing in Red Shoes.

Dunno about linux yet.

Eric

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Peter Fitzgibbons
Date:
2012-04-02 @ 09:22
Clarifying question: Does RedShoes 'compile' our whole codebase into a
single binary-blob .exe ?

I'm thinking for JRuby that a .bat is sufficient, and an installer,
hopefully, can handle setting icon for the .bat and planting it in the
proper places for all-users menu, quick-menu, etc.

Thoughts?

Peter Fitzgibbons
(847) 859-9550
Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com


On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Eric Watson <wasnotrice@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Apr 1, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Peter Fitzgibbons wrote:
>
> > DOH!  Too many options!
> > Read this : http://www.excelsior-usa.com/articles/java-to-exe.html
>
> I think this is the option we want for windows:
>
> http://www.excelsior-usa.com/articles/java-to-exe.html#launch
>
> (btw, did you see the prices on some of those products? $2000, $4000?
> Yikes!)
>
> For osx, wrapping a .jar in a .app should be pretty straightforward, I
> think. Very similar to what we're doing in Red Shoes.
>
> Dunno about linux yet.
>
> Eric
>

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2012-04-02 @ 15:47
> Clarifying question: Does RedShoes 'compile' our whole codebase into a
> single binary-blob .exe ?

Yes. Sorta. It also dumps a bunch of stuff in their home directory,
where it knows how to access it.

> Thoughts?

What's important is the end-user case, not specifically how it's
implemented. If a 7 year old can download one thing from hackety.com,
double click it, install stuff, and then double click some icon to
make it run, that's what I care about, much more than the exact
details of how it's implemented.

"Only one thing to download" is kinda a _major_ selling point.

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Peter Fitzgibbons
Date:
2012-04-02 @ 16:11
Yep, "one thing to download" is easy enough.

Ok, Jruby geeks : Reply with your vote on these options :


   - JWS - Java Web Start, where we package appropriately to get a single
   jar that has the right hooks for JWS
   - single-Jar, depending upon OS-level file-type/app matching for .jar.
   (for instance on Windows, .jar is matched to javaw.exe)
   - Install4J cross-platform installer, which will handle planting files
   in "all the right places", including potential JRE install, and leaving a
   single "icon" with link to the necessary startup .bat/.sh/.app

No matter which 'download, install, and run' method we choose, I belive
Shoes should also be available as a gem that can be included in someone's
pre-existing JRuby runtime.

Thanks for your vote.

Peter Fitzgibbons
(847) 859-9550
Email: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com
IM GTalk: peter.fitzgibbons
IM AOL: peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com


On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com>wrote:

> > Clarifying question: Does RedShoes 'compile' our whole codebase into a
> > single binary-blob .exe ?
>
> Yes. Sorta. It also dumps a bunch of stuff in their home directory,
> where it knows how to access it.
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> What's important is the end-user case, not specifically how it's
> implemented. If a 7 year old can download one thing from hackety.com,
> double click it, install stuff, and then double click some icon to
> make it run, that's what I care about, much more than the exact
> details of how it's implemented.
>
> "Only one thing to download" is kinda a _major_ selling point.
>

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2012-04-02 @ 16:15
> No matter which 'download, install, and run' method we choose, I belive
> Shoes should also be available as a gem that can be included in someone's
> pre-existing JRuby runtime.

+1

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Eric Watson
Date:
2012-04-02 @ 16:58

>> No matter which 'download, install, and run' method we choose, I belive
>> Shoes should also be available as a gem that can be included in someone's
>> pre-existing JRuby runtime.
> 
> +1

+2

Re: [shoes] Future Shoes - RE: Walkabout compiling issues, Jruby, multi-colors.

From:
Jenna Fox
Date:
2012-04-01 @ 02:20
If you double click a .jar on a mac, the first time it brings up a thing 
which I think needs admin rights, to download a fairly large java 
installation to the computer, and once that's done it runs.  

—
Jenna


On Sunday, 1 April 2012 at 12:14 PM, Steve Klabnik wrote:

> The primary use case is Hackety. Beginners need to download one file,
> and be able to double click on it and have it run. .bat and .sh might
> work? I'm not sure. It depends.
>  
> Currently, those files are .exe and .app. I think if you double click
> on a .jar it runs, right?
>  
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Peter Fitzgibbons
> <peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com (mailto:peter.fitzgibbons@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > Can it be a .bat and .sh ?
> > "one file" as in a self-extracting .sh, or "one file" as in .jar?
> >  
>  
>  
>