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My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-15 @ 16:15
Here you go, guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqSiO2yer4

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Chris Patti
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 19:59
Steve, I just got "This video has been removed by the user" when I
tried to view this.

Any thoughts or a new pointer perhaps? :)

Thanks!
-Chris


On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com> wrote:
> Here you go, guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqSiO2yer4
>



-- 
Christopher Patti - Geek At Large | GTalk: cpatti@gmail.com | AIM:
chrisfeohpatti | P: (260) 54PATTI
"Technology challenges art, art inspires technology." - John Lasseter, Pixar

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 21:51
Whoops! he took down that one and put up this one, with slides:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itqsw55rvc0&feature=youtu.be

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Chris Patti
Date:
2011-08-17 @ 17:37
Indeed, great talk!

I especially liked the bits about greater synergy among open source communities.

I think the nature of bright, passionate people is that they will be
opinionated, but it's also quite easy to become way too insular as a
result and ignore good work in other camps.

-Chris


On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com> wrote:
> Whoops! he took down that one and put up this one, with slides:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itqsw55rvc0&feature=youtu.be
>



-- 
Christopher Patti - Geek At Large | GTalk: cpatti@gmail.com | AIM:
chrisfeohpatti | P: (260) 54PATTI
"Technology challenges art, art inspires technology." - John Lasseter, Pixar

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Eric Watson
Date:
2011-08-15 @ 20:15
On Aug 15, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Steve Klabnik wrote:

> Here you go, guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqSiO2yer4

Great talk, Steve. Inspiring, honest, and heartfelt. I like what you're 
thinking in terms of Shoes as interface and testing/CI (not to mention 
programmers as people :) ).

I would love to help in the development effort. I've been spelunking 
around the code, getting the lay of the land. What would be really helpful
to me is to know where I can contribute that will help to energize and 
forward what you're working on right now. A roadmap, if you will, or a set
of common goals. And I would be happy to help compile it. I read some 
discussion on the ML a while back around Rainbow Shoes. I got a feel there
for the variety of simultaneous efforts going on, but did not get a good 
sense of where a contributing developer might be most useful to the 
project.

Eric

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-15 @ 20:34
Hey Eric-

Well, as far as Red Shoes goes, here's what really needs to be addressed:

1) the CI stuff. Like I said, this really needs some work to be done
with the Travis project.
2) Moving to 1.9.2. We can talk at length about why it's not working
if you'd like. This involves some pretty crazy Ruby stuff... but
that's fun!
3) improving the build process alltogether. Especially on Windows,
this really needs to be re-thought out and redone. There's a ton of
stuff in the makefile that isn't even used anymore, for example...

That's the biggest things. Here's some smaller stuff:

4) Getting a build going on Leopard. Lots of people would love this. I
don't have a machine to try it out. Lots of people are close-ish.
5) Fixing the bugs that are listed on the tracker. There's tons of
little things there that could use improvement.

I'll post a copy of this to
https://github.com/shoes/shoes/wiki/Shoes-roadmap when GitHub decides
to stop acting up. :)

What do you think about all of this stuff?

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Eric Watson
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 05:50
Steve,

Thanks for the list. That's very helpful. 

> Well, as far as Red Shoes goes, here's what really needs to be addressed:
> 
> 1) the CI stuff. Like I said, this really needs some work to be done
> with the Travis project.

Agreed, but we should at least be able to get a build on their standard 
ubuntu VM, right?  When I hear CI, I think test suite. Have you been able 
to make any progress on a testing strategy? So far, I'm stumped.

> 2) Moving to 1.9.2. We can talk at length about why it's not working
> if you'd like. This involves some pretty crazy Ruby stuff... but
> that's fun!

Sounds interesting…and necessary!

> 3) improving the build process alltogether. Especially on Windows,
> this really needs to be re-thought out and redone. There's a ton of
> stuff in the makefile that isn't even used anymore, for example…

Yes. I've built Shoes on OS X (homebrew) and ubuntu (apt-get) 
successfully, failed on OS X (compile deps from source) and Arch (pacman),
and haven't tried building on any Windows. There is a lot in the process 
that could be cleaned up and reorganized, even on the *nix platforms. Rake
isn't really being used to its full potential as a build tool right now, 
either. But without CI, it's hard to be confident you're not breaking 
another platform's build.

> 
> That's the biggest things. Here's some smaller stuff:
> 
> 4) Getting a build going on Leopard. Lots of people would love this. I
> don't have a machine to try it out. Lots of people are close-ish.

I don't have a Leopard machine either. Lion, though.

> 5) Fixing the bugs that are listed on the tracker. There's tons of
> little things there that could use improvement.

These, too, although many are related to build issues.

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 11:21
Anyway, yeah, if I can help you help with any of these, let me know.
I'm struggling with how to properly incorporate new people, and share
what I know about these problems and what it'd take to fix them...

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
J. Kaiden
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 12:38
Hi Steve,

  As far as documentation goes - please let me know of any areas that you
feel need more, and I'll be happy to help however I can.  Again, my
understanding of Shoes is somewhat limited, but with some basic info I can
fiddle around and work out documentation / examples.

  One (big) gap in the documentation that I notice is with the
Shoes::Widget.  Searching for 'widget' in the manual, for example, gives no
results.  I use widgets quite a bit, and could write up a page about basic
usage to be included in the manual.  Would this be useful?  If so, what
format should I send it to you in - and where?

  - J

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 13:30
>   As far as documentation goes - please let me know of any areas that you
> feel need more, and I'll be happy to help however I can.

Pretty much anything, really... Hm. I should organize a list and pick
some stuff. Lemme get back to you with that.

> Again, my
> understanding of Shoes is somewhat limited,

That's actually better in some ways, because then you know what's hard
to understand. :)

>   One (big) gap in the documentation that I notice is with the
> Shoes::Widget.  Searching for 'widget' in the manual, for example, gives no
> results.  I use widgets quite a bit, and could write up a page about basic
> usage to be included in the manual.  Would this be useful?

That would be super awesome, actually.

> If so, what
> format should I send it to you in - and where?

Well, if you want to put it in the manual (and that'd be a good
start), it's built from this file:
https://github.com/shoes/shoes/blob/develop/static/manual-en.txt you
can see an example of the formatting in there.

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
H. Sasse
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 15:11
On 16/08/2011 14:30, Steve Klabnik wrote:
>>    As far as documentation goes - please let me know of any areas that you
>> feel need more, and I'll be happy to help however I can.
> Pretty much anything, really... Hm. I should organize a list and pick
> some stuff. Lemme get back to you with that.
>
I have a half-baked idea about the problems discussed in your talk.  In 
the 1970s we were "promised"
all sorts of things for the future we are now in.  Leaving aside the 
holidays on the moon and jetpacks,
one thing was all the free time that the microprocessor was going to 
give us.  Everyone seems to
have less free time than they did in the seventies, probably because we 
are serving the microprocessor
masters and their need for speed! :-)  So nobody wants to commit to 
anything big.

But we -- well, I can't take any credit, but I've experienced it -- have 
found that test first development
works partly because we have small targets we can reach in the simplest 
way possible,
and know when we have met them.  It makes the task more manageable.   I 
have never seen anyone
apply this to requests for developer participation.  This might be for a 
number of reasons, including
not being able to estimate the size of tasks, but I think if the task is 
too big, it should be fed back as
"Too big - Should be split into <this>, <that>, or maybe split <here>".

Then, for each task I'd suggest something like:  prerequisites 
(knowledge, skills),  aims (what you want
done), and outcomes (what is considered success).  Then people can look 
and decide if they have the
right skills and background, if they have time to read up the bits they 
don't know, and whether they
can contribute the needed bits.  It's a bit like test first, and a bit 
like design by contract.

I don't know if this model matches the problem to the human issues of 
time commitment, or if it is too
rigid a model, and thus dehumanising, exarcerbating the problem.  It is 
also something that could
spawn another whole project to manage the process, thereby increasing 
the problem.  Maybe a
wiki page would suffice.  And it is probably too vague.   I'm hoping 
someone better at this than me
can improvise on this to improve it, like Andy Hunt discusses here:

http://pragprog.com/magazines/2011-08/guru-meditation

i.e. say "Yes, and" to build on it.

In the hope that I didn't just waste k seconds of your life,
     Hugh

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 21:51
> In the hope that I didn't just waste k seconds of your life,

Nope! It's an interesting concept.... hm. Breaking down tasks would
seem like a good thing...

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
J. Kaiden
Date:
2011-08-17 @ 00:17
>
>
> >   One (big) gap in the documentation that I notice is with the
> > Shoes::Widget.  ...  Would this be useful?
>
> That would be super awesome, actually.



  On it...  let you know when I've got something

 - J

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Saurabh Bhatia
Date:
2011-08-17 @ 17:30
Good One steve, just watched it

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:47 AM, J. Kaiden <jakekaiden@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> >   One (big) gap in the documentation that I notice is with the
>> > Shoes::Widget.  ...  Would this be useful?
>>
>> That would be super awesome, actually.
>>
>
>
>   On it...  let you know when I've got something
>
>  - J
>



-- 
Best Regards

Saurabh
http://about.me/rootuser

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
serialhex
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 14:57
steve, i enjoyed the talk and i hope we get some more people on shoes
development!  [i've been working a bit on green shoes, for which ashbb is
very grateful, but unfortunately not doing as much as i'd like :'( ]  so i
hope that all of the development conversation (or most of it anyway) can be
kept on this list, so if i get some time or something and notice a problem
that someones been talking about i can go ahead and probe into it... maybe
share some ideas on it or something... and maybe i'm not the only one who
might do that!

anyway, lets hope there are some hackers out there who get some free time to
work on shoes!!!
hex


-- 
my blog is cooler than yours: serialhex.github.com

The wise man said: "Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their
level and beat you with experience."

> > Other than the fact Linux has a cool name, could someone explain why I
> > should use Linux over BSD?
>
> No.  That's it.  The cool name, that is.  We worked very hard on
> creating a name that would appeal to the majority of people, and it
> certainly paid off: thousands of people are using linux just to be able
> to say "OS/2? Hah.  I've got Linux.  What a cool name".  386BSD made the
> mistake of putting a lot of numbers and weird abbreviations into the
> name, and is scaring away a lot of people just because it sounds too
> technical.
	-- Linus Torvalds' follow-up to a question about Linux

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 11:20
> Agreed, but we should at least be able to get a build on their standard 
ubuntu VM, right?  When I hear CI, I think test suite. Have you been able 
to make any progress on a testing strategy? So far, I'm stumped.

That's true. Any build is better than no build. I have a strategy in
mind, but I haven't set up anything yet. Even before tests, I was
thinking "compiles and runs without error" as a test. ;)

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Eric Watson
Date:
2011-08-16 @ 15:11
> Even before tests, I was thinking "compiles and runs without error" as a
test. ;)

I suppose an error-free build might be useful in running other tests ;)

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Timothy Barnes
Date:
2011-08-15 @ 21:22
Can you post the link to the Travis Project? (can read in video)



On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com>wrote:

> Hey Eric-
>
> Well, as far as Red Shoes goes, here's what really needs to be addressed:
>
> 1) the CI stuff. Like I said, this really needs some work to be done
> with the Travis project.
> 2) Moving to 1.9.2. We can talk at length about why it's not working
> if you'd like. This involves some pretty crazy Ruby stuff... but
> that's fun!
> 3) improving the build process alltogether. Especially on Windows,
> this really needs to be re-thought out and redone. There's a ton of
> stuff in the makefile that isn't even used anymore, for example...
>
> That's the biggest things. Here's some smaller stuff:
>
> 4) Getting a build going on Leopard. Lots of people would love this. I
> don't have a machine to try it out. Lots of people are close-ish.
> 5) Fixing the bugs that are listed on the tracker. There's tons of
> little things there that could use improvement.
>
> I'll post a copy of this to
> https://github.com/shoes/shoes/wiki/Shoes-roadmap when GitHub decides
> to stop acting up. :)
>
> What do you think about all of this stuff?
>

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-15 @ 21:25
http://travis-ci.org

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
J. Kaiden
Date:
2011-08-15 @ 21:38
Steve -

  awesome!  great to see - thanks a million for all the work you've put in.
 i'd be happy to help out in any way that i can, but i'm afraid that will be
pretty limited - maybe best with documentation.  i'll certainly keep
spreading the Shoes word as well, let's see how many we can get on board...

  thanks again,

  - j

Re: [shoes] My Talk at Lone Star Ruby

From:
Steve Klabnik
Date:
2011-08-15 @ 21:44
Documentation is also awesome! We need a bunch more of that, too.