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Shoes manual crash problem

Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Satoshi Asakawa
Date:
2010-05-15 @ 02:37
Hi all,

Jonty has reminded me of this issue for Windows:
- Shoes manual always crashes after a few seconds.

I found a solution and built Shoes-0.r1419.
Download from here:
http://www.rin-shun.com/shoes/index.html

Please confirm and let me know. :)

BTW. It seems that there is no need to add `require 'shoes/help'` twice.
I guess that Shoes.app opens new thread, so require may not work well
depending on timing. But I'm not sure why this patch works well. :-P

Cheers,
ashbb

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2010-05-15 @ 05:25
I suspect this is one of several threading issues between ruby 1.9.1 and
Shoes. There's an hang/crashing issue I can't reliability reproduce on
my system. If you load a shoes script that has errors and *then* when
open the console, you might get a ruby thread dump and a segfault. Thats
in native Linux - might be different in VirtualBox Linux.  Might be
different depending on your processor/cores/OS. There are race
conditions between the C part of shoes and the ruby part of shoes. 

On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 11:37 +0900, Satoshi Asakawa wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Jonty has reminded me of this issue for Windows: 
> - Shoes manual always crashes after a few seconds.
> 
> I found a solution and built Shoes-0.r1419.
> Download from here: 
> http://www.rin-shun.com/shoes/index.html
> 
> Please confirm and let me know. :)
> 
> BTW. It seems that there is no need to add `require 'shoes/help'`
> twice.
> I guess that Shoes.app opens new thread, so require may not work well
> depending on timing. But I'm not sure why this patch works well. :-P
> 
> Cheers,
> ashbb

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Devyn Cairns
Date:
2010-05-15 @ 16:51
Internally… I don't think Shoes uses Ruby's threading, I don't think it can
anyway. That's why it's not recommended to use Ruby's threads inside Shoes
(Ruby's threads are green threads, not real OS threads—whereas Shoes does
use real OS threads).

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net> wrote:

> I suspect this is one of several threading issues between ruby 1.9.1 and
> Shoes. There's an hang/crashing issue I can't reliability reproduce on
> my system. If you load a shoes script that has errors and *then* when
> open the console, you might get a ruby thread dump and a segfault. Thats
> in native Linux - might be different in VirtualBox Linux.  Might be
> different depending on your processor/cores/OS. There are race
> conditions between the C part of shoes and the ruby part of shoes.
>
> On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 11:37 +0900, Satoshi Asakawa wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Jonty has reminded me of this issue for Windows:
> > - Shoes manual always crashes after a few seconds.
> >
> > I found a solution and built Shoes-0.r1419.
> > Download from here:
> > http://www.rin-shun.com/shoes/index.html
> >
> > Please confirm and let me know. :)
> >
> > BTW. It seems that there is no need to add `require 'shoes/help'`
> > twice.
> > I guess that Shoes.app opens new thread, so require may not work well
> > depending on timing. But I'm not sure why this patch works well. :-P
> >
> > Cheers,
> > ashbb
>
>
>


-- 
   ~devyn

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 03:56
On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 09:51 -0700, Devyn Cairns wrote:
> Internally… I don't think Shoes uses Ruby's threading, I don't think
> it can anyway. 
_why did use ruby threads. Search setup.rb and pack.rb for 'Thread',
it's not that problematic if it was only ruby code being used.

> That's why it's not recommended to use Ruby's threads inside Shoes
> (Ruby's threads are green threads, not real OS threads—whereas Shoes
> does use real OS threads).
there are also situations where native threads are created in the
windows download C code and call backs from binject.c and perhaps the
windows code, to update a progress bar. That broke between 1.8.7 and
1.9.1. 

There is a mapping of Shoes/Ruby threads (green) to OS threads and the
various GUI threads on the different platforms, which isn't getting
better as newer versions of the pango/cairo libraries are used. 


> 
> On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net>
> wrote:
>         I suspect this is one of several threading issues between ruby
>         1.9.1 and
>         Shoes. There's an hang/crashing issue I can't reliability
>         reproduce on
>         my system. If you load a shoes script that has errors and
>         *then* when
>         open the console, you might get a ruby thread dump and a
>         segfault. Thats
>         in native Linux - might be different in VirtualBox Linux.
>          Might be
>         different depending on your processor/cores/OS. There are race
>         conditions between the C part of shoes and the ruby part of
>         shoes.
>         
>         
>         On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 11:37 +0900, Satoshi Asakawa wrote:
>         > Hi all,
>         >
>         > Jonty has reminded me of this issue for Windows:
>         > - Shoes manual always crashes after a few seconds.
>         >
>         > I found a solution and built Shoes-0.r1419.
>         > Download from here:
>         > http://www.rin-shun.com/shoes/index.html
>         >
>         > Please confirm and let me know. :)
>         >
>         > BTW. It seems that there is no need to add `require
>         'shoes/help'`
>         > twice.
>         > I guess that Shoes.app opens new thread, so require may not
>         work well
>         > depending on timing. But I'm not sure why this patch works
>         well. :-P
>         >
>         > Cheers,
>         > ashbb
>         
>         
>         
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>    ~devyn

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Devyn Cairns
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 05:21
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 09:51 -0700, Devyn Cairns wrote:
> > Internally… I don't think Shoes uses Ruby's threading, I don't think
> > it can anyway.
> _why did use ruby threads. Search setup.rb and pack.rb for 'Thread',
> it's not that problematic if it was only ruby code being used.
>
>
I meant from the C code.


> > That's why it's not recommended to use Ruby's threads inside Shoes
> > (Ruby's threads are green threads, not real OS threads—whereas Shoes
> > does use real OS threads).
> there are also situations where native threads are created in the
> windows download C code and call backs from binject.c and perhaps the
> windows code, to update a progress bar. That broke between 1.8.7 and
> 1.9.1.
>
> There is a mapping of Shoes/Ruby threads (green) to OS threads and the
> various GUI threads on the different platforms, which isn't getting
> better as newer versions of the pango/cairo libraries are used.
>
>
There's definitely some odd stuff going on.

-- 
   ~devyn

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Cecil Coupe
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 08:13
On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 22:21 -0700, Devyn Cairns wrote:
> On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net>
> wrote:

> There's definitely some odd stuff going on

I can understand why _why abandoned his babies. 


Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
i5m
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 16:20
A good article about _why was publihed recently:

http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/05/15/why-a-tale-of-a-post-modern-genius/

Shoes and HacketyHack get a mention.

On 16 May 2010, at 09:13, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 22:21 -0700, Devyn Cairns wrote:
>> On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net>
>> wrote:
>
>> There's definitely some odd stuff going on
>
> I can understand why _why abandoned his babies.

If you take the view of _why being a teacher, then leaving all his  
projects behind was the last lesson. I.e. "Right, I've shown you all  
enough, now's the time for you to figure stuff out on your own."

Takes some figuring though! ;-)

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Patrick Smith
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 17:36
My read of _why is that he had his demons - not that uncommon for brilliant
folk. The down side of being a genius would be that you are surrounded by
people who are not as smart as you. The fame and adulation of millions is
not the tonic for the soul many believe it to be (not that I can speak from
personal experience).

I don't know what inspired his departure, but I like to imagine _why out
there, living in a hut somewhere east of death valley, subsisting on
rainwater and pure grain alcohol, purifying himself for his eventual return
at the head of an army of militant programmers, martial artists, and
possibly a fox. Or two.


-- 

Chapak Patrick Smith

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Devyn Cairns
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 19:14
Is it selfish to say I would like to see him return?

You never know… he might even still check on his projects every once in a
while to see what's happening with them. He could even be reading this very
message on the archives!

Perhaps he's waiting for us to do something magnificent, to come back and
say "I knew you could do it!"

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Patrick Smith <chapak@gmail.com> wrote:

> My read of _why is that he had his demons - not that uncommon for brilliant
> folk. The down side of being a genius would be that you are surrounded by
> people who are not as smart as you. The fame and adulation of millions is
> not the tonic for the soul many believe it to be (not that I can speak from
> personal experience).
>
> I don't know what inspired his departure, but I like to imagine _why out
> there, living in a hut somewhere east of death valley, subsisting on
> rainwater and pure grain alcohol, purifying himself for his eventual return
> at the head of an army of militant programmers, martial artists, and
> possibly a fox. Or two.
>
>
> --
>
> Chapak Patrick Smith
>



-- 
   ~devyn

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Devyn Cairns
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 08:56
Doesn't mean we should give up, now. Remember: _why was one man… a very
skilled man, but only one. Together we can, and will accomplish more, even
if we are not so skilled as he. :)

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 22:21 -0700, Devyn Cairns wrote:
> > On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > There's definitely some odd stuff going on
>
> I can understand why _why abandoned his babies.
>
>
>
>


-- 
   ~devyn

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Satoshi Asakawa
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 09:10
Hi Devyn,

Cool! Totally agree with you. Here we go! :-D

ashbb

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Patrick Smith
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 15:34
He's only one man!

Maybe we should double the guard? (Nothing constructive to contribute, but
that setup was too perfect.)


On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 3:56 AM, Devyn Cairns <devyn.cairns@gmail.com>wrote:

> Doesn't mean we should give up, now. Remember: _why was one man… a very
> skilled man, but only one. Together we can, and will accomplish more, even
> if we are not so skilled as he. :)
>
>
> On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 22:21 -0700, Devyn Cairns wrote:
>> > On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Cecil Coupe <ccoupe@cableone.net>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > There's definitely some odd stuff going on
>>
>> I can understand why _why abandoned his babies.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>    ~devyn
>



-- 

Chapak Patrick Smith

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
i5m
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 16:09
I had to google that. Weavers of War? That's a fairly obscure  
reference isn't it? Or is Google missing something more obvious?

On 16 May 2010, at 16:34, Patrick Smith <chapak@gmail.com> wrote:

> He's only one man!
>
> Maybe we should double the guard? (Nothing constructive to  
> contribute, but that setup was too perfect.)

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Patrick Smith
Date:
2010-05-16 @ 16:23
It's not a direct quote, more of a paraphrase of a genre trope
<http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneManArmy>

I think _why would appreciate that this almost automatically qualifies him
as a badass <http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Badass>

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:09 AM, i5m <i5ivem@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I had to google that. Weavers of War? That's a fairly obscure
> reference isn't it? Or is Google missing something more obvious?
>
> On 16 May 2010, at 16:34, Patrick Smith <chapak@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > He's only one man!
> >
> > Maybe we should double the guard? (Nothing constructive to
> > contribute, but that setup was too perfect.)
>



-- 

Chapak Patrick Smith

Re: [shoes] Shoes manual crash problem

From:
Satoshi Asakawa
Date:
2010-05-15 @ 07:44
Hi Cecil,

Thank you for the explanation.
Umm... seems a bit too difficult issue for me.

What will happen with Ruby 1.9.2 ?

Hope it will be better for Shoes. ;-)

ashbb