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Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Date:
2011-08-31 @ 17:04
Hi,

I've had a very long term interest in crypto, civil liberties, economics and
how to better enable the individual and marginalize organizational control
of same. For a while I participated in the original cypherpunks list,

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/02/2082

I'm currently working on a distributed non-profit STEM effort that combines
hackerspace ethics, hands-on science museums, and technology incubator
methods. It's called Confusion Research Center,

http://confusionresearchcenter.org

One of my first interests would be using some of the CRC resources to extend
the Crypto Project efforts. Perhaps by creating a distributed form of this
mailing list like we did for the cpunks.

At one point I was playing around with Plan 9 with an interest in
distributed computing environments, encrypted distributed filesystems, data
havens, and anonymity. From the web page it looks like at least some of
these are still current interests.

What is the status of the current anonymous remailer networks?

Is anybody here on Perry's resurected (again) crypto list?

-- 

 -- -- -- -- 
Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
 
jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
ravage@ssz.com
jchoate00001@gmail.com
jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
james.choate@twcable.com 
h: 512-657-1279 
w: 512-845-8989
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
http://arbornet.org (ravage)
 
Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
 -- -- -- -- 

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Gregory Xz
Date:
2011-08-31 @ 19:11
I'm here. I just found out about this today. :\

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:04 PM, James Choate <
jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I've had a very long term interest in crypto, civil liberties, economics
> and
> how to better enable the individual and marginalize organizational control
> of same. For a while I participated in the original cypherpunks list,
>
> http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/02/2082
>
> I'm currently working on a distributed non-profit STEM effort that combines
> hackerspace ethics, hands-on science museums, and technology incubator
> methods. It's called Confusion Research Center,
>
> http://confusionresearchcenter.org
>
> One of my first interests would be using some of the CRC resources to
> extend
> the Crypto Project efforts. Perhaps by creating a distributed form of this
> mailing list like we did for the cpunks.
>
> At one point I was playing around with Plan 9 with an interest in
> distributed computing environments, encrypted distributed filesystems, data
> havens, and anonymity. From the web page it looks like at least some of
> these are still current interests.
>
> What is the status of the current anonymous remailer networks?
>
> Is anybody here on Perry's resurected (again) crypto list?
>
> --
>
>  -- -- -- --
> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
>
> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
> ravage@ssz.com
> jchoate00001@gmail.com
> jameschoate@austin.rr.com
> james.choate@g.austincc.edu
> james.choate@twcable.com
> h: 512-657-1279
> w: 512-845-8989
> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center
> http://confusionresearchcenter.org
> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
>
> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
>  -- -- -- --
>

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
John Preston
Date:
2011-08-31 @ 19:29
On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 15:11 -0400, Gregory XZ wrote:
> I'm here. I just found out about this today. :\
> 
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:04 PM, James Choate
> <jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org> wrote:
>         
>         Hi,
>         
>         I've had a very long term interest in crypto, civil liberties,
>         economics and
>         how to better enable the individual and marginalize
>         organizational control
>         of same. For a while I participated in the original
>         cypherpunks list,
>         
>         http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/02/2082
>         
>         I'm currently working on a distributed non-profit STEM effort
>         that combines
>         hackerspace ethics, hands-on science museums, and technology
>         incubator
>         methods. It's called Confusion Research Center,
>         
>         http://confusionresearchcenter.org
>         
>         One of my first interests would be using some of the CRC
>         resources to extend
>         the Crypto Project efforts. Perhaps by creating a distributed
>         form of this
>         mailing list like we did for the cpunks.
>         
>         At one point I was playing around with Plan 9 with an interest
>         in
>         distributed computing environments, encrypted distributed
>         filesystems, data
>         havens, and anonymity. From the web page it looks like at
>         least some of
>         these are still current interests.
>         
>         What is the status of the current anonymous remailer networks?
>         
>         Is anybody here on Perry's resurected (again) crypto list?
>         
>         --
>         
>          -- -- -- --
>         Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
>         
>         jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
>         ravage@ssz.com
>         jchoate00001@gmail.com
>         jameschoate@austin.rr.com
>         james.choate@g.austincc.edu
>         james.choate@twcable.com
>         h: 512-657-1279
>         w: 512-845-8989
>         http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center
>         http://confusionresearchcenter.org
>         http://arbornet.org (ravage)
>         
>         Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
>          -- -- -- --
> 

Ditto :)
-- 
Yours sincerely,
John Preston

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Gregory Xz
Date:
2011-08-31 @ 19:31
This my first time on any Cypherpunk mailing list. I wasn't part of the
original one. But I have read about it.

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:29 PM, John Preston <gizmoguy1@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 15:11 -0400, Gregory XZ wrote:
> > I'm here. I just found out about this today. :\
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:04 PM, James Choate
> > <jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org> wrote:
> >
> >         Hi,
> >
> >         I've had a very long term interest in crypto, civil liberties,
> >         economics and
> >         how to better enable the individual and marginalize
> >         organizational control
> >         of same. For a while I participated in the original
> >         cypherpunks list,
> >
> >         http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/02/2082
> >
> >         I'm currently working on a distributed non-profit STEM effort
> >         that combines
> >         hackerspace ethics, hands-on science museums, and technology
> >         incubator
> >         methods. It's called Confusion Research Center,
> >
> >         http://confusionresearchcenter.org
> >
> >         One of my first interests would be using some of the CRC
> >         resources to extend
> >         the Crypto Project efforts. Perhaps by creating a distributed
> >         form of this
> >         mailing list like we did for the cpunks.
> >
> >         At one point I was playing around with Plan 9 with an interest
> >         in
> >         distributed computing environments, encrypted distributed
> >         filesystems, data
> >         havens, and anonymity. From the web page it looks like at
> >         least some of
> >         these are still current interests.
> >
> >         What is the status of the current anonymous remailer networks?
> >
> >         Is anybody here on Perry's resurected (again) crypto list?
> >
> >         --
> >
> >          -- -- -- --
> >         Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
> >
> >         jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
> >         ravage@ssz.com
> >         jchoate00001@gmail.com
> >         jameschoate@austin.rr.com
> >         james.choate@g.austincc.edu
> >         james.choate@twcable.com
> >         h: 512-657-1279
> >         w: 512-845-8989
> >         http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center
> >         http://confusionresearchcenter.org
> >         http://arbornet.org (ravage)
> >
> >         Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
> >          -- -- -- --
> >
>
> Ditto :)
> --
> Yours sincerely,
> John Preston
>
>

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Date:
2011-08-31 @ 19:46
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 03:31:42PM -0400, Gregory XZ wrote:

> This my first time on any Cypherpunk mailing list. I wasn't part of the
> original one. But I have read about it.

I'm not sure that this is meant to be -a- cpunk list but simply a current
extension of the ethos, with perhaps different goals and visions. I joined
the original list just days after it started and participated until Aug.
2003 when I no longer felt my efforts were contributing to anythiny worthy.
It was also clear from the increaasing number of subpeonas I was getting as
a mailing list operator that the LEA had a rising interest in leveraging the
list to harass activists of a variety of ilk.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.02/crypto.rebels.html

From a philosophical perspective I was never much impressed by the CACL
(Crypto-Anarchist, Anarcho-Capitalist, Crypto-Libertarian, or just
Libertarian) perspectives. I think they have a lot of good ideas but without
a democratic framework they devolve. This gets into a discussion about
evolutionary psychology, economics, psychology, and cultural mores. E.O.
Wilson is a good entry point for anyone interested in this dynamic milieu.

I had known about the project but until the /. article today hadn't really
been motivated to follow up on it to any degree.

My personal interest is the interaction of crypto, economics, and civil
liberties in a democratic framework. I tend toward the Austrian School but
disagree w/ their view of the lack of meric on analytical methods. Small
world, complexity theory, and increasing fine grained data give this a
utility that isn't to be ignored. I think a good example of this is FinCEN
wich formed in 1990 (http://fincen.gov) to collect, aggregate, manipulate,
and dissemenate economic data (in some cases getting around 4th amendment
issues by slight of hand).

-- 

 -- -- -- -- 
Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
 
jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
ravage@ssz.com
jchoate00001@gmail.com
jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
james.choate@twcable.com 
h: 512-657-1279 
w: 512-845-8989
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
http://arbornet.org (ravage)
 
Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
 -- -- -- -- 

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Tom Ritter
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 02:02
Hello all!  The influx of users both here and on our IRC channel is very
encouraging!  We appreciate your input and time!

At the moment for the most part we (I use 'we' loosely) are focused on
fixing, maintaining, and updating the existing tools available to us -
remailers and OTR being the two biggest ones.  Browsers, Clients, and
internet protocols have outstripped the tools built, and we want to get
them running smoothly and introduce a new generation of users to them.

If you'd like to get involved - no matter your background - we have
areas you may be interested in - whether you have spare servers, money,
or best of all spare time:  https://crypto.is/interact/

To respond to some messages:

> What is the status of the current anonymous remailer networks?

This short message sums up the current scene:
http://librelist.com/browser//remailer/2011/7/7/current-remailer-scene/

We are hoping to revive it however.  Both through standing up new nodes
in mixmaster and mixminion - and improving them through code
improvements, better documentation, and new features (like a mixminion
directory implementation).

> Is anybody here on Perry's resurected (again) crypto list?

I am on both Perry's list and the randombit.net list.  I don't often
have anything enlightening to say, but I enjoy the discussions most of
the time.

> I'm not sure that this is meant to be -a- cpunk list but simply a current
> extension of the ethos, with perhaps different goals and visions. 

Pretty much.  I'm very wary of calling myself a cypherpunk - I want to
earn the title.

> It was also clear from the increasing number of subpeonas I was getting as
> a mailing list operator that the LEA had a rising interest in leveraging the
> list to harass activists of a variety of ilk.

That's very interesting, and something I think a lot of people getting
involved have forgotten - running the services we want to often involves
dealing with and standing up to Law Enforcement.  A number of tor
operators have been legitimately questioned and illegitimately bullied.
 Any insights you can provide into this realm would be enlightening for us.

> increasing fine grained data give this a
> utility that isn't to be ignored. I think a good example of this is FinCEN
> wich formed in 1990 (http://fincen.gov) to collect, aggregate, manipulate,
> and dissemenate economic data (in some cases getting around 4th amendment
> issues by slight of hand).

I feel like the massive collection of data (for example EZPass/toll
plaza data, license plate recognition[1], etc) can still lead to a
surveillance society.  Maybe the government doesn't run it, and instead
buys it from the company, but the end result is the same - an inability
for someone to lead a private life if they wish without sacrificing the
trappings of modern society.

Something I would really like to see happen is companies develop new
technologies with privacy and anonymity built in. But what's their
incentive, when companies can sell your data to generate more income?  I
hope that's where we can come in - both to show them the benefits (eg
data breach consequences) and help them build it.  As I understand it
there's a community around this concept called PETs[2] but I wasn't able
to make it to their conference this summer.


-tom


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy-enhancing_technologies

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Colonel Graff
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 02:15
On Aug 31, 2011 10:05 PM, "Tom Ritter" <tom@ritter.vg> wrote:
>
> Hello all!  The influx of users both here and on our IRC channel is very
> encouraging!  We appreciate your input and time!
>
> At the moment for the most part we (I use 'we' loosely) are focused on
> fixing, maintaining, and updating the existing tools available to us -
> remailers and OTR being the two biggest ones.  Browsers, Clients, and
> internet protocols have outstripped the tools built, and we want to get
> them running smoothly and introduce a new generation of users to them.
>
> If you'd like to get involved - no matter your background - we have
> areas you may be interested in - whether you have spare servers, money,
> or best of all spare time:  https://crypto.is/interact/
>
I'm certainly planning on it.

> > Is anybody here on Perry's resurected (again) crypto list?
>
> I am on both Perry's list and the randombit.net list.  I don't often
> have anything enlightening to say, but I enjoy the discussions most of
> the time.
>
Thanks for the new reading material!
> > I'm not sure that this is meant to be -a- cpunk list but simply a
current
> > extension of the ethos, with perhaps different goals and visions.
>
> Pretty much.  I'm very wary of calling myself a cypherpunk - I want to
> earn the title.
>
Anyone else loosely consider themself a hacker?
> > It was also clear from the increasing number of subpeonas I was getting
as
> > a mailing list operator that the LEA had a rising interest in leveraging
the
> > list to harass activists of a variety of ilk.
>
> That's very interesting, and something I think a lot of people getting
> involved have forgotten - running the services we want to often involves
> dealing with and standing up to Law Enforcement.  A number of tor
> operators have been legitimately questioned and illegitimately bullied.
>  Any insights you can provide into this realm would be enlightening for
us.
>
EPIC and the EFF sometimes touch on these topics I can scrounge around for
some of their posts.

(snip)
> for someone to lead a private life if they wish without sacrificing the
> trappings of modern society.
>
Reminds me of a story one of the local news stations did bashing people who
pay cash at tolls. Kind if got under my skin for this reason exactly.
> Something I would really like to see happen is companies develop new
> technologies with privacy and anonymity built in. But what's their
> incentive, when companies can sell your data to generate more income?  I
> hope that's where we can come in - both to show them the benefits (eg
> data breach consequences) and help them build it.  As I understand it
> there's a community around this concept called PETs[2] but I wasn't able
> to make it to their conference this summer.
>
>
> -tom
>
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition
> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy-enhancing_technologies

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 04:07
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:15:10PM -0400, Colonel Graff wrote:

> Anyone else loosely consider themself a hacker?

What is a 'hacker'? There is no single definition and they are all to some
degree exclusionary. Don't confuse a thing with it's label :)

-- 

 -- -- -- -- 
Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
 
jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
ravage@ssz.com
jchoate00001@gmail.com
jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
james.choate@twcable.com 
h: 512-657-1279 
w: 512-845-8989
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
http://arbornet.org (ravage)
 
Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
 -- -- -- -- 

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Colonel Graff
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 13:09
My own definition (if I had to define it) would probably be an amalgamation
of the various definitions (including a bit of black in my "hat").
On Sep 1, 2011 12:08 AM, "James Choate" <jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org>
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:15:10PM -0400, Colonel Graff wrote:
>
>> Anyone else loosely consider themself a hacker?
>
> What is a 'hacker'? There is no single definition and they are all to some
> degree exclusionary. Don't confuse a thing with it's label :)
>
> --
>
> -- -- -- --
> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
>
> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
> ravage@ssz.com
> jchoate00001@gmail.com
> jameschoate@austin.rr.com
> james.choate@g.austincc.edu
> james.choate@twcable.com
> h: 512-657-1279
> w: 512-845-8989
> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center
> http://confusionresearchcenter.org
> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
>
> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
> -- -- -- --

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 04:06
Tom,

On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:02:38PM -0400, Tom Ritter wrote:

> Hello all!  The influx of users both here and on our IRC channel is very
> encouraging!  We appreciate your input and time!
> 
> At the moment for the most part we (I use 'we' loosely) are focused on
> fixing, maintaining, and updating the existing tools available to us -
> remailers and OTR being the two biggest ones.  Browsers, Clients, and
> internet protocols have outstripped the tools built, and we want to get
> them running smoothly and introduce a new generation of users to them.
> 
> If you'd like to get involved - no matter your background - we have
> areas you may be interested in - whether you have spare servers, money,
> or best of all spare time:  https://crypto.is/interact/

I'm definitely interested in providing cycles in both in silica and meat
space.

> > I'm not sure that this is meant to be -a- cpunk list but simply a current
> > extension of the ethos, with perhaps different goals and visions. 
> 
> Pretty much.  I'm very wary of calling myself a cypherpunk - I want to
> earn the title.

"Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
than showing up.

> That's very interesting, and something I think a lot of people getting
> involved have forgotten - running the services we want to often involves
> dealing with and standing up to Law Enforcement.  A number of tor
> operators have been legitimately questioned and illegitimately bullied.
>  Any insights you can provide into this realm would be enlightening for us.

I first got involved way back in the mid 80's w/ the LoD v MoD and Steve
Jackson bust that led up to the formation of the EFF here in Austin
initially, I've used 'Ravage' as a handle since '83 when I discovered the
Transformers :)

Pretty quickly after that the Austin contingent broke from the national
organization. My personal views are more in line with the national
group than the local group. I find a lot of the EFF Austin/EFF Texas
policies and views less than enlightened.

http://www.sjgames.com/SS/affidavit.html 

There's also a lot to be learned from John Young's experiences w/ Cryptome
and Wikileaks as well. As well as the 'show trials' of Carl Johnson and Jim
Bell.

http://cryptome.org/0001/assange-cpunks.htm

http://cryptome.org/jdb/show-trials.htm

> I feel like the massive collection of data (for example EZPass/toll
> plaza data, license plate recognition[1], etc) can still lead to a
> surveillance society.  Maybe the government doesn't run it, and instead
> buys it from the company, but the end result is the same - an inability
> for someone to lead a private life if they wish without sacrificing the
> trappings of modern society.

I believe you have a good point, but your conclusion is questionable. There
is a major difference between if the government or a company 'runs it.' The
difference is representation. With a business you have none in principle or
practice. At least with a government there is some input.

We live at the first time in human history where it is possible to collect,
manipulate, and act upon data collected across the whole of humanity. The
question is whether a few or many will have access and benefit from it.
Right now it's companies and governments (e.g. FinCEN) doing it w/ no
transparency or overwatch.

http://www.amazon.com/Transparent-Society-Technology-Between-Privacy/dp/0738201448

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transparent_Society


http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Coersion&x=0&y=0

-- 

 -- -- -- -- 
Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
 
jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
ravage@ssz.com
jchoate00001@gmail.com
jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
james.choate@twcable.com 
h: 512-657-1279 
w: 512-845-8989
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
http://arbornet.org (ravage)
 
Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
 -- -- -- -- 

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Lance Cottrell
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 14:53
I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.

That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands and 
putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics 
thesis).

	-Lance

On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:

> <snip>

> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
> than showing up.
> <snip>

--
Lance Cottrell
loki@obscura.com


Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 15:12
Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in a
few seasons :)

On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
> 
> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands and 
putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics 
thesis).
> 
> 	-Lance
> 
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
> 
> > <snip>
> 
> > "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
> > than showing up.
> > <snip>

"not coding" --> "showing up"
 
Very loose mapping I agree.

-- 

 -- -- -- -- 
Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
 
jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
ravage@ssz.com
jchoate00001@gmail.com
jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
james.choate@twcable.com 
h: 512-657-1279 
w: 512-845-8989
http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
http://arbornet.org (ravage)
 
Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
 -- -- -- -- 

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Lance Cottrell
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 15:25
Things are good, thanks.

I am spending a lot of time thinking about what an anonymity system should
look like when the users also want to be active on Facebook and such.

	-Lance



On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:12 AM, James Choate wrote:

> 
> Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in a
> few seasons :)
> 
> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
>> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
>> 
>> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands and
putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics 
thesis).
>> 
>> 	-Lance
>> 
>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
>> 
>>> <snip>
>> 
>>> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
>>> than showing up.
>>> <snip>
> 
> "not coding" --> "showing up"
> 
> Very loose mapping I agree.
> 
> -- 
> 
> -- -- -- -- 
> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
> 
> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
> ravage@ssz.com
> jchoate00001@gmail.com
> jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
> james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
> james.choate@twcable.com 
> h: 512-657-1279 
> w: 512-845-8989
> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
> http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
> 
> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
> -- -- -- -- 
> 

--
Lance Cottrell
loki@obscura.com


Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Explanoit@explanoit.com
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 16:52
What are your thoughts so far?

On Sep 1, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:

> Things are good, thanks.
> 
> I am spending a lot of time thinking about what an anonymity system 
should look like when the users also want to be active on Facebook and 
such.
> 
>    -Lance
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:12 AM, James Choate wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in a
>> few seasons :)
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
>>> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
>>> 
>>> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands 
and putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics
thesis).
>>> 
>>>    -Lance
>>> 
>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
>>> 
>>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>>> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
>>>> than showing up.
>>>> <snip>
>> 
>> "not coding" --> "showing up"
>> 
>> Very loose mapping I agree.
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> -- -- -- -- 
>> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
>> 
>> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
>> ravage@ssz.com
>> jchoate00001@gmail.com
>> jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
>> james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
>> james.choate@twcable.com 
>> h: 512-657-1279 
>> w: 512-845-8989
>> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
>> http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
>> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
>> 
>> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
>> -- -- -- -- 
>> 
> 
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
> 
> 
> 

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Lance Cottrell
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 17:08
I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the terms of 
service of the existing social network sites.

The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple identities
/ persona.

There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to certain 
information to certain other users, but it would require the other users 
to be part of the same system, and would require client software for 
anyone to post or read your profile.
Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.

	-Lance


On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Explanoit@explanoit.com wrote:

> What are your thoughts so far?
> 
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:
> 
>> Things are good, thanks.
>> 
>> I am spending a lot of time thinking about what an anonymity system 
should look like when the users also want to be active on Facebook and 
such.
>> 
>>   -Lance
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:12 AM, James Choate wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in a
>>> few seasons :)
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
>>>> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
>>>> 
>>>> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands 
and putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics
thesis).
>>>> 
>>>>   -Lance
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> <snip>
>>>> 
>>>>> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
>>>>> than showing up.
>>>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>> "not coding" --> "showing up"
>>> 
>>> Very loose mapping I agree.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> -- -- -- -- 
>>> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
>>> 
>>> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
>>> ravage@ssz.com
>>> jchoate00001@gmail.com
>>> jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
>>> james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
>>> james.choate@twcable.com 
>>> h: 512-657-1279 
>>> w: 512-845-8989
>>> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
>>> http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
>>> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
>>> 
>>> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
>>> -- -- -- -- 
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Lance Cottrell
>> loki@obscura.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

--
Lance Cottrell
loki@obscura.com


Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
tarski
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 17:18
Somebody said Diaspora ? 
:P

> ----------------------------------------
> From: Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com>
> Sent: Thu Sep 01 19:08:00 CEST 2011
> To: <remailer@librelist.com>
> Subject: Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and 
helping out
> 
> 
> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the terms 
of service of the existing social network sites.
> 
> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple 
identities / persona.
> 
> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to certain 
information to certain other users, but it would require the other users 
to be part of the same system, and would require client software for 
anyone to post or read your profile.
> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
> 
> 	-Lance
> 
> 
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Explanoit@explanoit.com wrote:
> 
> > What are your thoughts so far?
> > 
> > On Sep 1, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Things are good, thanks.
> >> 
> >> I am spending a lot of time thinking about what an anonymity system 
should look like when the users also want to be active on Facebook and 
such.
> >> 
> >>   -Lance
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:12 AM, James Choate wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in a
> >>> few seasons :)
> >>> 
> >>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
> >>>> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
> >>>> 
> >>>> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands
and putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics
thesis).
> >>>> 
> >>>>   -Lance
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>> 
> >>>>> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
> >>>>> than showing up.
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>> 
> >>> "not coding" --> "showing up"
> >>> 
> >>> Very loose mapping I agree.
> >>> 
> >>> -- 
> >>> 
> >>> -- -- -- -- 
> >>> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
> >>> 
> >>> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
> >>> ravage@ssz.com
> >>> jchoate00001@gmail.com
> >>> jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
> >>> james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
> >>> james.choate@twcable.com 
> >>> h: 512-657-1279 
> >>> w: 512-845-8989
> >>> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
> >>> http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
> >>> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
> >>> 
> >>> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
> >>> -- -- -- -- 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Lance Cottrell
> >> loki@obscura.com
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> 
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
> 
> 
> 

-----------------------------------------------------
Mail.be, WebMail and Virtual Office
http://www.mail.be

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Elsbeth
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 18:50
Lance,

we actually put in a lot of mental effort and it cost us a few gray  
cells and some years to come up with those specs in a webapp. I'm  
really intereted in your thoughts about the outcome: https://pidder.com

Elsbeth

Am 01.09.2011 um 19:08 schrieb Lance Cottrell:

> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the  
> terms of service of the existing social network sites.
>
> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple  
> identities / persona.
>
> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to  
> certain information to certain other users, but it would require the  
> other users to be part of the same system, and would require client  
> software for anyone to post or read your profile.
> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
>
> 	-Lance

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Lance Cottrell
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 20:43
Thanks, very interesting. Right off the bat it looks like there is a fair 
bit of effort in setting up my account, and the terminology I am hit with 
immediately in the wizard is confusing.

It looks like there are some very powerful and exciting capabilities 
supported by the system.

	-Lance

On Sep 1, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Elsbeth wrote:

> Lance,
> 
> we actually put in a lot of mental effort and it cost us a few gray  
> cells and some years to come up with those specs in a webapp. I'm  
> really intereted in your thoughts about the outcome: https://pidder.com
> 
> Elsbeth
> 
> Am 01.09.2011 um 19:08 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
> 
>> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the  
>> terms of service of the existing social network sites.
>> 
>> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple  
>> identities / persona.
>> 
>> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to  
>> certain information to certain other users, but it would require the  
>> other users to be part of the same system, and would require client  
>> software for anyone to post or read your profile.
>> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
>> 
>> 	-Lance
> 
> 

--
Lance Cottrell
loki@obscura.com


Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Elsbeth
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 21:06
Thank you for taking a peak at it! The effort for setting up an  
account is owing to the German law that we have to make sure users  
have received the T&Cs...
But we're still searching for a way to improve this. Don't hesitate to  
contact me, if you have any further questions.

Elsbeth
P.S.: You might also be interested in our open source project  
cipherbox.org

Am 01.09.2011 um 22:43 schrieb Lance Cottrell:

> Thanks, very interesting. Right off the bat it looks like there is a  
> fair bit of effort in setting up my account, and the terminology I  
> am hit with immediately in the wizard is confusing.
>
> It looks like there are some very powerful and exciting capabilities  
> supported by the system.
>
> 	-Lance
>
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Elsbeth wrote:
>
>> Lance,
>>
>> we actually put in a lot of mental effort and it cost us a few gray
>> cells and some years to come up with those specs in a webapp. I'm
>> really intereted in your thoughts about the outcome: https://pidder.com
>>
>> Elsbeth
>>
>> Am 01.09.2011 um 19:08 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
>>
>>> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the
>>> terms of service of the existing social network sites.
>>>
>>> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple
>>> identities / persona.
>>>
>>> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to
>>> certain information to certain other users, but it would require the
>>> other users to be part of the same system, and would require client
>>> software for anyone to post or read your profile.
>>> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
>>>
>>> 	-Lance
>>
>>
>
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
>
>

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Gregory Xz
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 21:10
@Ian Haverlock. If you want to unsubscribe. Write:
remailer-unsubscribe@librelist.com

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Elsbeth <elsbeth@pidder.com> wrote:

> Thank you for taking a peak at it! The effort for setting up an account is
> owing to the German law that we have to make sure users have received the
> T&Cs...
> But we're still searching for a way to improve this. Don't hesitate to
> contact me, if you have any further questions.
>
> Elsbeth
> P.S.: You might also be interested in our open source project
> cipherbox.org
>
> Am 01.09.2011 um 22:43 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
>
> Thanks, very interesting. Right off the bat it looks like there is a fair
> bit of effort in setting up my account, and the terminology I am hit with
> immediately in the wizard is confusing.
>
> It looks like there are some very powerful and exciting capabilities
> supported by the system.
>
> -Lance
>
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Elsbeth wrote:
>
> Lance,
>
>
> we actually put in a lot of mental effort and it cost us a few gray
>
> cells and some years to come up with those specs in a webapp. I'm
>
> really intereted in your thoughts about the outcome: https://pidder.com
>
>
> Elsbeth
>
>
> Am 01.09.2011 um 19:08 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
>
>
> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the
>
> **terms of service of the existing social network sites.
>
>
> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple
>
> identities / persona.
>
>
> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to
>
> certain information to certain other users, but it would require the
>
> other users to be part of the same system, and would require client
>
> **software for anyone to post or read your profile.
>
> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
>
>
> -Lance
>
>
>
>
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
>
>
>
>

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Lance Cottrell
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 21:13
I was thinking more of the first 2 pages of wizard after the account was created.

	-Lance


On Sep 1, 2011, at 5:06 PM, Elsbeth wrote:

> Thank you for taking a peak at it! The effort for setting up an account 
is owing to the German law that we have to make sure users have received 
the T&Cs...
> But we're still searching for a way to improve this. Don't hesitate to 
contact me, if you have any further questions.
> 
> Elsbeth
> P.S.: You might also be interested in our open source project cipherbox.org
> 
> Am 01.09.2011 um 22:43 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
> 
>> Thanks, very interesting. Right off the bat it looks like there is a 
fair bit of effort in setting up my account, and the terminology I am hit 
with immediately in the wizard is confusing.
>> 
>> It looks like there are some very powerful and exciting capabilities 
supported by the system.
>> 
>> 	-Lance
>> 
>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Elsbeth wrote:
>> 
>>> Lance,
>>> 
>>> we actually put in a lot of mental effort and it cost us a few gray  
>>> cells and some years to come up with those specs in a webapp. I'm  
>>> really intereted in your thoughts about the outcome: https://pidder.com
>>> 
>>> Elsbeth
>>> 
>>> Am 01.09.2011 um 19:08 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
>>> 
>>>> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the  
>>> terms of service of the existing social network sites.
>>> 
>>> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple  
>>> identities / persona.
>>> 
>>> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to  
>>> certain information to certain other users, but it would require the  
>>> other users to be part of the same system, and would require client  
>> software for anyone to post or read your profile.
>>> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
>>> 
>>> 	-Lance
>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
> 
> 
> 

--
Lance Cottrell
loki@obscura.com


Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Elsbeth
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 21:31
Oh, sorry, misread that then Well, we'll take a thorough look at those  
again. Hope it didn't push you off, though.
We're thinking about an easier way to start, something like a basic  
set of input fields that will automatically fill out the first  
identity so that the concept will be more comprehensible.

Elsbeth

Am 01.09.2011 um 23:13 schrieb Lance Cottrell:

> I was thinking more of the first 2 pages of wizard after the account  
> was created.
>
> 	-Lance
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 5:06 PM, Elsbeth wrote:
>
>> Thank you for taking a peak at it! The effort for setting up an  
>> account is owing to the German law that we have to make sure users  
>> have received the T&Cs...
>> But we're still searching for a way to improve this. Don't hesitate  
>> to contact me, if you have any further questions.
>>
>> Elsbeth
>> P.S.: You might also be interested in our open source project  
>> cipherbox.org
>> < div>
>> Am 01.09.2011 um 22:43 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
>>
>>> Thanks, very interesting. Right off the bat it looks like there is  
>>> a fair bit of effort in setting up my account, and the terminology  
>>> I am hit with immediately in the wizard is confusing.
>>>
>>> It looks like there are some very powerful and exciting  
>>> capabilities supported by the system.
>>>
>>> 	-Lance
>>>
>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Elsbeth wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lance,
>>>>
>>>> we actually put in a lot of mental effort and it cost us a few gray
>>>> cells and some years to come up with those specs in a webapp. I'm
>>>> really intereted in your thoughts about the outcome: https://  
>>>> pidder.com
>>>>
>>>> Elsbeth
>>>>
>>>> Am 01.09.2011 um 19:08 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the
>>>> terms of service of the existing social network sites.
>>>>
>>>> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple
>>>> identities / persona.
>>>>
>>>>> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to
>>>>> certain information to certain other users, but it would require  
>>>>> the
>>>>> other users to be part of the same system, and would require  
>>>>> client
>>>> software for anyone to post or read your profile.
>>>>> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and  
>>>>> block.
>>>>>
>>>>> 	-Lance
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Lance Cottrell
>>>> loki@obscura.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
>
>
>

Pia Pauls
pidder Dropbox: https://www.pidder.com/dropbox/pia_pauls
Tel.: +49 6198 309 392
Fax: +49 6198 309 399
Mobil: +49 177 8239 519
pia.pauls@versaneo.de
Versaneo GmbH
Weingasse 37
65817 Eppstein
www.versaneo.de
Geschäftsführung: Dr. Stefan Lipgens, Harald Flörke; Registergericht:  
Königstein im Taunus HRB 7128

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Matthijs R. Koot
Date:
2011-09-02 @ 09:36
Elsbeth (nice to meet you here!): the fact that Pidder's video tutorial
on creating Quicklogins [1] uses *SourceForge* as example sums up the
problem :-) I've been having LOTS of fun exploring Pidder, but it has a
steep(ish) learning curve.

Some other notes:

- I like that I could not catch Pidder.com loading remote content;
- I like that Pidder.com sessions auto-lock after 10 min of inactivity;
- I like that Pidder.com's paid upgrade allows Cash-Ticket payment;
- I don't like that my account number is not randomized. I can estimate
Lance's Pidder.com account number is between 15250-15300... Consider
assigning random numbers?
- I don't like that Pidder.com does not sufficiently document the
circumstances under which Pidder.com would *fail* to provide anonymity.
Those circumstances exist -- e.g. just have your SSL provider Thawte
screw up like DigiNotar and Comodo -- and honesty rules. For
inspiration, see the explicit assumptions made by Tor's designers about
adversaries [2].

A non-stakeholder should scrutinize Pidder and brainstorm on attack
vectors and threat models, and countermeasures - Pidder is serious
enough to deserve that, IMHO.

Kind regards,
Matthijs R. Koot
University of Amsterdam

[1] https://www.pidder.com/en/video/create_quicklogins.mp4
[2] See Section 2 in
https://svn.torproject.org/svn/projects/design-paper/blocking.html

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Elsbeth
Date:
2011-09-02 @ 12:31
> Elsbeth (nice to meet you here!):

Likewise :)

> the fact that Pidder's video tutorial
> on creating Quicklogins [1] uses *SourceForge* as example sums up the
> problem :-) I've been having LOTS of fun exploring Pidder, but it  
> has a
> steep(ish) learning curve.

We have since simplified the creation of Quicklogins, we still need to  
update the tutorial to reflect that.
What I don't get is how using SourceForge as an example sums up the  
problem? Because SourceForge is not your typical end user application?

We're very thankful for all insight on how to make that learning curve  
less steep, i.e. what we can do to make using pidder more intuitive.

> Some other notes:
>
> - I like that I could not catch Pidder.com loading remote content;

That's because it doesn't. :)

> - I like that Pidder.com sessions auto-lock after 10 min of  
> inactivity;

That's the default, you can set the session timeout period in your  
user preferences.

> - I like that Pidder.com's paid upgrade allows Cash-Ticket payment;

Which unfortunately and not understandably to date no-one has ever  
used except ourselves for test purposes :(

> - I don't like that my account number is not randomized. I can  
> estimate
> Lance's Pidder.com account number is between 15250-15300... Consider
> assigning random numbers?

The account number is in fact not randomized, but it is *not* the  
account id. That means that knowledge of or guessing an account number  
does not compromize this account in any way as it is never used for  
anything other than for being part of the invoice number when  
purchasing the Premium Edition. So we're not exactly sure of what  
would be gained from randomizing that number.
But since it is general good practice to generate as little  
identifiable information as possible, we will consider randomizing it  
after all.


> - I don't like that Pidder.com does not sufficiently document the
> circumstances under which Pidder.com would *fail* to provide  
> anonymity.
> Those circumstances exist -- e.g. just have your SSL provider Thawte
> screw up like DigiNotar and Comodo -- and honesty rules. For
> inspiration, see the explicit assumptions made by Tor's designers  
> about
> adversaries [2].

We do have a risk assessment page [3] (and make our user confirm they  
read it upon account creation) and wiki pages [4] dedicated to the  
subject.
But yes, you are right, it is not yet comprehensive. Thank you for  
your suggestion for inspiration. We will work on this to make it better.

> A non-stakeholder should scrutinize Pidder and brainstorm on attack
> vectors and threat models, and countermeasures - Pidder is serious
> enough to deserve that, IMHO.

We're all for that. Any volunteers?

>
> Kind regards,
> Matthijs R. Koot
> University of Amsterdam
>
> [1] https://www.pidder.com/en/video/create_quicklogins.mp4
> [2] See Section 2 in
> https://svn.torproject.org/svn/projects/design-paper/blocking.html

Thanks a lot for your detailed feedback. We really appreciate it!

Cheers,
Elsbeth (with a little help from Jonah)

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Matthijs R. Koot
Date:
2011-09-02 @ 13:13
Elsbeth,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply!

> What I don't get is how using SourceForge as an example sums up the
> problem? Because SourceForge is not your typical end user application?

Roughly stated, SourceForge only appeals to nerds. (I liked it.) Using
Facebook, LinkedIn, Google+, Netflix, etc. as example appeals to a wider
audience, makes those unfamiliar w/SourceForge feel comfortable w/Pidder
too. (Just IMHO, always feel free to ignore :-))

>> - I like that Pidder.com's paid upgrade allows Cash-Ticket payment;
> 
> Which unfortunately and not understandably to date no-one has ever used
> except ourselves for test purposes :(

Funny. Some guesses:

- some premium members seek protection against tracking by rogue
companies, but not against tracking by bank and/or colluding govt;
- some premium members are still test-driving Pidder, not yet caring
about risks when they proceed to use it "for real";
- some premium members don't know how to make anonymous payments;
- ...?

To be sure: I think you're doing a great job w/Pidder, keep up the good
work. (Let me add that I have no stake in Pidder myself :-))

Matthijs

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Elsbeth
Date:
2011-09-02 @ 13:50
Am 02.09.2011 um 15:13 schrieb Matthijs R. Koot:

> Elsbeth,
>
> Thanks for your comprehensive reply!
>

You're welcome :)

>> What I don't get is how using SourceForge as an example sums up the
>> problem? Because SourceForge is not your typical end user  
>> application?
>
> Roughly stated, SourceForge only appeals to nerds. (I liked it.) Using
> Facebook, LinkedIn, Google+, Netflix, etc. as example appeals to a  
> wider
> audience, makes those unfamiliar w/SourceForge feel comfortable w/ 
> Pidder
> too. (Just IMHO, always feel free to ignore :-))

No, no, you're right. Good idea. Sometimes we're apt not to see the  
wood for the trees... We'll change that in the next update of the  
Quicklogin video tutorial.


>
>>> - I like that Pidder.com's paid upgrade allows Cash-Ticket payment;
>>
>> Which unfortunately and not understandably to date no-one has ever  
>> used
>> except ourselves for test purposes :(
>
> Funny. Some guesses:
>
> - some premium members seek protection against tracking by rogue
> companies, but not against tracking by bank and/or colluding govt;
> - some premium members are still test-driving Pidder, not yet caring
> about risks when they proceed to use it "for real";
> - some premium members don't know how to make anonymous payments;
> - ...?
>

Could be all of the above. Cash Ticket should be more popular these  
days one would think...

> To be sure: I think you're doing a great job w/Pidder, keep up the  
> good
> work. (Let me add that I have no stake in Pidder myself :-))
>
> Matthijs

That's music to our ears! :) We will. Thanks again.

Have a great weekend,
Elsbeth

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Ian Havelock
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 20:54
unsubscribe


On 1 Sep 2011, at 21:43, Lance Cottrell wrote:

> Thanks, very interesting. Right off the bat it looks like there is a 
fair bit of effort in setting up my account, and the terminology I am hit 
with immediately in the wizard is confusing.
> 
> It looks like there are some very powerful and exciting capabilities 
supported by the system.
> 
> 	-Lance
> 
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Elsbeth wrote:
> 
>> Lance,
>> 
>> we actually put in a lot of mental effort and it cost us a few gray  
>> cells and some years to come up with those specs in a webapp. I'm  
>> really intereted in your thoughts about the outcome: https://pidder.com
>> 
>> Elsbeth
>> 
>> Am 01.09.2011 um 19:08 schrieb Lance Cottrell:
>> 
>>> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the  
>>> terms of service of the existing social network sites.
>>> 
>>> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple  
>>> identities / persona.
>>> 
>>> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to  
>>> certain information to certain other users, but it would require the  
>>> other users to be part of the same system, and would require client  
>>> software for anyone to post or read your profile.
>>> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
>>> 
>>> 	-Lance
>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
> 
> 
> 

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Henrique Saraiva
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 17:16
Would it be possible to do it using something like Diaspora then? It's not
very widespread, which defeats the purpose of a social network I suppose,
but it could be more easily adapted than something like Facebook.

On 1 September 2011 19:08, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:

> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the terms of
> service of the existing social network sites.
>
> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple identities
> / persona.
>
> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to certain
> information to certain other users, but it would require the other users to
> be part of the same system, and would require client software for anyone to
> post or read your profile.
> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
>
>        -Lance
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Explanoit@explanoit.com wrote:
>
> > What are your thoughts so far?
> >
> > On Sep 1, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Things are good, thanks.
> >>
> >> I am spending a lot of time thinking about what an anonymity system
> should look like when the users also want to be active on Facebook and such.
> >>
> >>   -Lance
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:12 AM, James Choate wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in
> a
> >>> few seasons :)
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
> >>>> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was
> certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
> >>>>
> >>>> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands
> and putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics
> thesis).
> >>>>
> >>>>   -Lance
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it
> other
> >>>>> than showing up.
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>> "not coding" --> "showing up"
> >>>
> >>> Very loose mapping I agree.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> -- -- -- --
> >>> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
> >>>
> >>> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
> >>> ravage@ssz.com
> >>> jchoate00001@gmail.com
> >>> jameschoate@austin.rr.com
> >>> james.choate@g.austincc.edu
> >>> james.choate@twcable.com
> >>> h: 512-657-1279
> >>> w: 512-845-8989
> >>> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center
> >>> http://confusionresearchcenter.org
> >>> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
> >>>
> >>> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
> >>> -- -- -- --
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Lance Cottrell
> >> loki@obscura.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
>
>
>
>

Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Lance Cottrell
Date:
2011-09-01 @ 17:40
While I support such efforts, I think it is very unlikely that meaningful 
numbers of people will switch. It is the old adoption problem.

We need to go to the mountain because it will not come to us.

	-Lance


On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Henrique Saraiva wrote:

> Would it be possible to do it using something like Diaspora then? It's 
not very widespread, which defeats the purpose of a social network I 
suppose, but it could be more easily adapted than something like Facebook.
> 
> On 1 September 2011 19:08, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:
> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the terms 
of service of the existing social network sites.
> 
> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple 
identities / persona.
> 
> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to certain 
information to certain other users, but it would require the other users 
to be part of the same system, and would require client software for 
anyone to post or read your profile.
> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.
> 
>        -Lance
> 
> 
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Explanoit@explanoit.com wrote:
> 
> > What are your thoughts so far?
> >
> > On Sep 1, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Things are good, thanks.
> >>
> >> I am spending a lot of time thinking about what an anonymity system 
should look like when the users also want to be active on Facebook and 
such.
> >>
> >>   -Lance
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:12 AM, James Choate wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in a
> >>> few seasons :)
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
> >>>> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
> >>>>
> >>>> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands
and putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics
thesis).
> >>>>
> >>>>   -Lance
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
> >>>>> than showing up.
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>> "not coding" --> "showing up"
> >>>
> >>> Very loose mapping I agree.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> -- -- -- --
> >>> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
> >>>
> >>> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
> >>> ravage@ssz.com
> >>> jchoate00001@gmail.com
> >>> jameschoate@austin.rr.com
> >>> james.choate@g.austincc.edu
> >>> james.choate@twcable.com
> >>> h: 512-657-1279
> >>> w: 512-845-8989
> >>> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center
> >>> http://confusionresearchcenter.org
> >>> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
> >>>
> >>> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
> >>> -- -- -- --
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Lance Cottrell
> >> loki@obscura.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> 
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
> 
> 
> 
> 

--
Lance Cottrell
loki@obscura.com


Re: [remailer] Greetings and inquiry into current efforts and helping out

From:
Ele Asurareo
Date:
2011-09-03 @ 04:13
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 09/01/2011 01:08 PM, Lance Cottrell wrote:
> I think that doing it right will require seriously violating the terms 
of service of the existing social network sites.
> 
> The right direction is around automation of the use of multiple 
identities / persona.
> 
> There might be some ways to use crypto to only allow access to certain 
information to certain other users, but it would require the other users 
to be part of the same system, and would require client software for 
anyone to post or read your profile.
> Also, it would be easy for a site like Facebook to detect and block.

Web 2.0 Suicide Machine. FB didn't like this art project.

http://suicidemachine.org/

- -ele
> 
> 	-Lance
> 
> 
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Explanoit@explanoit.com wrote:
> 
>> What are your thoughts so far?
>>
>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lance Cottrell <loki@obscura.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Things are good, thanks.
>>>
>>> I am spending a lot of time thinking about what an anonymity system 
should look like when the users also want to be active on Facebook and 
such.
>>>
>>>   -Lance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:12 AM, James Choate wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Lance, hope all is well with you and yours. Haven't crossed paths in a
>>>> few seasons :)
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Lance Cottrell wrote:
>>>>> I recall a lot of folks on the list who did not code, but that was 
certainly the core ethos and what was most promoted and encouraged.
>>>>>
>>>>> That drumbeat was certainly what got me to stop sitting on my hands 
and putting them on the keyboard (and eventually derailing my Astrophysics
thesis).
>>>>>
>>>>>   -Lance
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:06 AM, James Choate wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Cyperhpunks write code." I think that's really all their is to it other
>>>>>> than showing up.
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> "not coding" --> "showing up"
>>>>
>>>> Very loose mapping I agree.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> -- -- -- -- 
>>>> Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus
>>>>
>>>> jchoate@confusionresearchcenter.org
>>>> ravage@ssz.com
>>>> jchoate00001@gmail.com
>>>> jameschoate@austin.rr.com 
>>>> james.choate@g.austincc.edu 
>>>> james.choate@twcable.com 
>>>> h: 512-657-1279 
>>>> w: 512-845-8989
>>>> http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Confusion_Research_Center 
>>>> http://confusionresearchcenter.org 
>>>> http://arbornet.org (ravage)
>>>>
>>>> Adapt, Adopt, Improvise
>>>> -- -- -- -- 
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Lance Cottrell
>>> loki@obscura.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> --
> Lance Cottrell
> loki@obscura.com
> 
> 
> 

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