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definition/ goals/ manifesto

definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Aram Bartholl
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 12:21
as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about centralizing
things but it would be very interesting to:

- connect
- find common interests
- come up with a definition of the whole field (also for wikipedia)
- discuss possible common tech?
- do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/ protocols?
- api for location and services (freifunk has something like this) ?
...

i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have discussions going on
already ..;)

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
panayotis antoniadis
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 12:42
Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep 
thinking
what could go wrong :-)

This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both from our own
individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!

So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as 
possible
from the past.

For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)




On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about centralizing
> things but it would be very interesting to:
>
> - connect
> - find common interests
> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for wikipedia)
> - discuss possible common tech?
> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/ protocols?
> - api for location and services (freifunk has something like this) ?
> ...
>
> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have discussions going on
> already ..;)

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Aram Bartholl
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 12:49
ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
together and discussing on very informal bases...

i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
internet shut down etc... till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
and hang on to google etc


Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
> 
> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep 
> thinking
> what could go wrong :-)
> 
> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both from our own
> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
> 
> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as 
> possible
> from the past.
> 
> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about centralizing
>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>
>> - connect
>> - find common interests
>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for wikipedia)
>> - discuss possible common tech?
>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/ protocols?
>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something like this) ?
>> ...
>>
>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have discussions going on
>> already ..;)
> 
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Joseph Bonicioli
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 13:07
Hi all,

Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)

> On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de> wrote:
> 
> ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
> this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
> steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
> together and discussing on very informal bases...
> 
> i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
> you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
> internet shut down etc…
Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick in and 
drastically change our every day communication platforms to something more
distributed, autonomous, secure, creative and open.
Just a thought … and a vision :)
> till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
> and hang on to google etc
> 
> 
> Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>> 
>> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep 
>> thinking
>> what could go wrong :-)
>> 
>> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
>> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both from our own
>> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
>> 
>> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
>> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as 
>> possible
>> from the past.
>> 
>> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
>> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about centralizing
>>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>> 
>>> - connect
>>> - find common interests
>>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for wikipedia)
>>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/ protocols?
>>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something like this) ?
>>> ...
>>> 
>>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have discussions going on
>>> already ..;)
>> 
>> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Sébastien Pierre
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 15:28
Off-networks are not convenient, and as pointed by Aram, they're unlikely
to become mainstream just because of that. However, they do have potential
practical applications as explored by Panayotis & al. Off-nets are a great
way to question our dependency on the Internet (with all the risks and
problems that come with that).

Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and how their
properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters from surveillance
and information sharing restraints. I think this would help people better
understand the value and potential of off-nets.

I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who created
off-nets and their experience with users/audience.

-- Sébastien

--
ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
http://ffctn.com
T:  514-664-4654
C:  438-880-0123
L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli <nettraptor@awmn.net>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>
> > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de>
> wrote:
> >
> > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
> > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
> > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
> > together and discussing on very informal bases...
> >
> > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
> > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
> > internet shut down etc…
> Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick in and
> drastically change our every day communication platforms to something more
> distributed, autonomous, secure, creative and open.
> Just a thought … and a vision :)
> > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
> > and hang on to google etc
> >
> >
> > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
> >>
> >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
> >> thinking
> >> what could go wrong :-)
> >>
> >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
> >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both from our
> own
> >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very
> careful!
> >>
> >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto"
> or
> >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
> >> possible
> >> from the past.
> >>
> >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for
> some
> >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
> Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
> >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about centralizing
> >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
> >>>
> >>> - connect
> >>> - find common interests
> >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for wikipedia)
> >>> - discuss possible common tech?
> >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/ protocols?
> >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something like this) ?
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have discussions going
> on
> >>> already ..;)
> >>
> >>
>
>

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Sarah Grant
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 16:47
I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our 
thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it would 
be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas come to light /
things are learned. I think it’s a great place to start defining what it 
is we really are trying to accomplish as individual participants and as a 
group.

also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are not 
convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social networks, 
purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also stems from a 
lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how tedious it might 
seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot of potential to get 
people interested in creating their own off-network for whatever reason, 
if we gave them some kind of entry point in that assisted with the set-up 
and design (maybe some kind of template system or UI kit, for example?). 
By the way, when i say ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary 
citizens who aren’t otherwise involved with technology or computer 
networking. 

- just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…

sarah




> On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com> wrote:
> 
> Off-networks are not convenient, and as pointed by Aram, they're 
unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they do have 
potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis & al. Off-nets 
are a great way to question our dependency on the Internet (with all the 
risks and problems that come with that).
> 
> Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and how 
their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters from 
surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this would help 
people better understand the value and potential of off-nets.
> 
> I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who created 
off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
> 
> -- Sébastien
> 
> --
> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
> http://ffctn.com <http://ffctn.com/>
> T:  514-664-4654
> C:  438-880-0123
> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
> 
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli <nettraptor@awmn.net 
<mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
> 
> > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de 
<mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
> >
> > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
> > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
> > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
> > together and discussing on very informal bases...
> >
> > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
> > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
> > internet shut down etc…
> Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick in and 
drastically change our every day communication platforms to something more
distributed, autonomous, secure, creative and open.
> Just a thought … and a vision :)
> > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
> > and hang on to google etc
> >
> >
> > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
> >>
> >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
> >> thinking
> >> what could go wrong :-)
> >>
> >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
> >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both from our own
> >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
> >>
> >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
> >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
> >> possible
> >> from the past.
> >>
> >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
> >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada 
<http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada> :-)
> Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
> >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about centralizing
> >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
> >>>
> >>> - connect
> >>> - find common interests
> >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for wikipedia)
> >>> - discuss possible common tech?
> >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/ protocols?
> >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something like this) ?
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have discussions going on
> >>> already ..;)
> >>
> >>
> 
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Sébastien Pierre
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 17:08
I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
face with Invisible Islands.

--
ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
http://ffctn.com
T:  514-664-4654
C:  438-880-0123
L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es> wrote:

> I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
> thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it would be
> a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas come to light /
> things are learned. I think it’s a great place to start defining what it is
> we really are trying to accomplish as individual participants and as a
> group.
>
> also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are not
> convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social networks,
> purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also stems from a lack
> of understanding of how to use such networks + how tedious it might seem to
> set one up yourself. I think there is a lot of potential to get people
> interested in creating their own off-network for whatever reason, if we
> gave them some kind of entry point in that assisted with the set-up and
> design (maybe some kind of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the
> way, when i say ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens
> who aren’t otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>
> - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>
> sarah
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com> wrote:
>
> Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're unlikely
> to become mainstream just because of that. However, they do have potential
> practical applications as explored by Panayotis & al. Off-nets are a great
> way to question our dependency on the Internet (with all the risks and
> problems that come with that).
>
> Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and how
> their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters from
> surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this would help
> people better understand the value and potential of off-nets.
>
> I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who created
> off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>
> -- Sébastien
>
> --
> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
> http://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
> T:  514-664-4654
> C:  438-880-0123
> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli <nettraptor@awmn.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>
>> > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>> > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
>> > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
>> > together and discussing on very informal bases...
>> >
>> > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
>> > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
>> > internet shut down etc…
>> Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick in and
>> drastically change our every day communication platforms to something more
>> distributed, autonomous, secure, creative and open.
>> Just a thought … and a vision :)
>> > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>> > and hang on to google etc
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>> >>
>> >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
>> >> thinking
>> >> what could go wrong :-)
>> >>
>> >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
>> >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both from
>> our own
>> >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very
>> careful!
>> >>
>> >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a
>> "manifesto" or
>> >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
>> >> possible
>> >> from the past.
>> >>
>> >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for
>> some
>> >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>> Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>> >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about centralizing
>> >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>> >>>
>> >>> - connect
>> >>> - find common interests
>> >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for wikipedia)
>> >>> - discuss possible common tech?
>> >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/ protocols?
>> >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something like this) ?
>> >>> ...
>> >>>
>> >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have discussions going
>> on
>> >>> already ..;)
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Aram Bartholl
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 20:36
MANIFESTOOOOO!!

you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))


On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
> face with Invisible Islands.
> 
> --
> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
> http://ffctn.com
> T:  514-664-4654
> C:  438-880-0123
> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
> 
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
> 
>     I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>     thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>     would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>     come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>     start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>     individual participants and as a group.
> 
>     also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>     not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>     networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>     stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>     tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>     of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>     off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>     point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>     of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>     ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>     otherwise involved with technology or computer networking. 
> 
>     - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
> 
>     sarah
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>     On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>     <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>     unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>     do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>     & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>     Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>
>>     Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>     how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>     from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>     would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>     off-nets.
>>
>>     I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>     created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>
>>     -- Sébastien
>>
>>     --
>>     ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>     htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>     T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>     C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>     L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>
>>     On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>     <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi all,
>>
>>         Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>
>>         > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl 
<bartholl@datenform.de <mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>         >
>>         > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>>         > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, 
manifesto (next
>>         > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about 
just getting
>>         > together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>         >
>>         > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not 
convenient.
>>         > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
>>         > internet shut down etc…
>>         Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>         in and drastically change our every day communication
>>         platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>         creative and open.
>>         Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>         > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>         > and hang on to google etc
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>         >>
>>         >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the 
same keep
>>         >> thinking
>>         >> what could go wrong :-)
>>         >>
>>         >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast 
and if we are
>>         >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, 
both from our own
>>         >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be 
very careful!
>>         >>
>>         >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a 
"manifesto" or
>>         >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn 
as much as
>>         >> possible
>>         >> from the past.
>>         >>
>>         >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos 
searching for some
>>         >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>         Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>         >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>         >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>         centralizing
>>         >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>         >>>
>>         >>> - connect
>>         >>> - find common interests
>>         >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>         wikipedia)
>>         >>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>         >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>         protocols?
>>         >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>         like this) ?
>>         >>> ...
>>         >>>
>>         >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>         discussions going on
>>         >>> already ..;)
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>
>>
> 
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
panayotis antoniadis
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 12:37
Indeed, this is the point of no return that I was always scared of :-)

I agree that editing a manifesto could be very helpful and constructive 
and I could
compromise with the declaration of an "open manifesto" subject to 
continuous change
and appropriation from different groups.

As for the potential future of these networks, there were similar views 
on the
use of the personal computer (there is a famous quote by someone saying
that he cannot imagine what would be the use of them). When these
"personal networks" will be as easy (or better easier) than a blog to setup
you will see what will happen. The trouble will start when the coolest 
personal
network will be the iBox by Apple :-)

By the way, privacy is a very tricky point and I find very dangerous the 
illusion
of privacy that such networks "islands" could offer (it is not so 
difficult for the
NSA or other curious institutions to actually listen to these as well. A 
compromised
smartphone of an innocent user would be enough).



On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
> MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>
> you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>
>
> On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>> face with Invisible Islands.
>>
>> --
>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>> http://ffctn.com
>> T:  514-664-4654
>> C:  438-880-0123
>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>
>>      I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>      thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>      would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>      come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>      start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>      individual participants and as a group.
>>
>>      also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>      not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>      networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>      stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>      tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>      of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>      off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>      point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>      of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>      ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>      otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>>
>>      - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>
>>      sarah
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>      On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>>      <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>      Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>>      unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>>      do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>>      & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>>      Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>>
>>>      Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>>      how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>>      from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>>      would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>>      off-nets.
>>>
>>>      I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>>      created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>>
>>>      -- Sébastien
>>>
>>>      --
>>>      ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>      htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>>      T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>>      C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>>      L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>
>>>      On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>>      <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>          Hi all,
>>>
>>>          Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>>
>>>          > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl 
<bartholl@datenform.de <mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>>          >
>>>          > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a 
joke because
>>>          > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, 
manifesto (next
>>>          > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about 
just getting
>>>          > together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>>          >
>>>          > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not 
convenient.
>>>          > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian 
scenario coming,
>>>          > internet shut down etc…
>>>          Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>>          in and drastically change our every day communication
>>>          platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>>          creative and open.
>>>          Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>>          > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>>          > and hang on to google etc
>>>          >
>>>          >
>>>          > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>>          >>
>>>          >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at 
the same keep
>>>          >> thinking
>>>          >> what could go wrong :-)
>>>          >>
>>>          >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast 
and if we are
>>>          >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, 
both from our own
>>>          >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to 
be very careful!
>>>          >>
>>>          >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast 
a "manifesto" or
>>>          >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to 
learn as much as
>>>          >> possible
>>>          >> from the past.
>>>          >>
>>>          >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos 
searching for some
>>>          >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>>          Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>>          >>
>>>          >>
>>>          >>
>>>          >>
>>>          >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>>          >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>>          centralizing
>>>          >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>>          >>>
>>>          >>> - connect
>>>          >>> - find common interests
>>>          >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>>          wikipedia)
>>>          >>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>>          >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>>          protocols?
>>>          >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>>          like this) ?
>>>          >>> ...
>>>          >>>
>>>          >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>>          discussions going on
>>>          >>> already ..;)
>>>          >>
>>>          >>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Bezdomny
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 13:45
Hey guys, is there any technical truth to this? if so, then a compromised 
phone is the least of your worries!

http://www.eweek.com/security/nsa-can-hack-you-even-if-you-arent-connected-to-the-internet.html

I think we should focus on autonomy rather than security. Security is a 
dream, but at least autonomy, the ability to interact without having your 
communications altered/censored/interfered with is a strong selling point.

As far as the manifesto, I get bored writing alone, would be fun to do a 
manifesto “sprint” where it’s collaboratively written. 


On Nov 28, 2014, at 14:37, panayotis antoniadis <panayotis@nethood.org> wrote:

> 
> Indeed, this is the point of no return that I was always scared of :-)
> 
> I agree that editing a manifesto could be very helpful and constructive 
> and I could
> compromise with the declaration of an "open manifesto" subject to 
> continuous change
> and appropriation from different groups.
> 
> As for the potential future of these networks, there were similar views 
> on the
> use of the personal computer (there is a famous quote by someone saying
> that he cannot imagine what would be the use of them). When these
> "personal networks" will be as easy (or better easier) than a blog to setup
> you will see what will happen. The trouble will start when the coolest 
> personal
> network will be the iBox by Apple :-)
> 
> By the way, privacy is a very tricky point and I find very dangerous the 
> illusion
> of privacy that such networks "islands" could offer (it is not so 
> difficult for the
> NSA or other curious institutions to actually listen to these as well. A 
> compromised
> smartphone of an innocent user would be enough).
> 
> 
> 
> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>> MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>> 
>> you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>> 
>> 
>> On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>>> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>>> face with Invisible Islands.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>> http://ffctn.com
>>> T:  514-664-4654
>>> C:  438-880-0123
>>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>>> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>     I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>>     thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>>     would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>>     come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>>     start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>>     individual participants and as a group.
>>> 
>>>     also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>>     not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>>     networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>>     stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>>     tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>>     of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>>     off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>>     point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>>     of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>>     ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>>     otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>>> 
>>>     - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>> 
>>>     sarah
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>     On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>>>     <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>     Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>>>     unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>>>     do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>>>     & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>>>     Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>>> 
>>>>     Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>>>     how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>>>     from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>>>     would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>>>     off-nets.
>>>> 
>>>>     I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>>>     created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>>> 
>>>>     -- Sébastien
>>>> 
>>>>     --
>>>>     ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>>     htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>>>     T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>>>     C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>>>     L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>> 
>>>>     On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>>>     <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>         Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>>         Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>>> 
>>>>> On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de 
<mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>>>>> this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
>>>>> steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
>>>>> together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>>>> 
>>>>> i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
>>>>> you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
>>>>> internet shut down etc…
>>>>         Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>>>         in and drastically change our every day communication
>>>>         platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>>>         creative and open.
>>>>         Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>>>> till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>>>> and hang on to google etc
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>> what could go wrong :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
>>>>>> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both from our own
>>>>>> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
>>>>>> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
>>>>>> possible
>>>>>> from the past.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
>>>>>> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>>>         Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>>>>>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>>>         centralizing
>>>>>>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - connect
>>>>>>> - find common interests
>>>>>>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>>>         wikipedia)
>>>>>>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>>>>>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>>>         protocols?
>>>>>>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>>>         like this) ?
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>>>         discussions going on
>>>>>>> already ..;)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Matthias Strubel
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 14:56
Hey,
About that article, stay cool. IMHO it is not as dangerous as the article 
tries to illustrate.

See this sentence:
"The target machines first are compromised by way of a USB stick or tiny 
circuit board that broadcasts the information."
They infected the target computer with additional hardware.

Later the author describes that it is a different communication style then
normal wifi. And if it is,  you are able to write detectors 

Well.... Maybe I got something wrong but to me it still sound more like a 
agent story.

But on the flipped side of that story: who was able to imagine wall this 
NSA stuff, that person would be locked away because of being insane.


My two cents

Matthias 


> On 28 Nov 2014, at 14:45, Bezdomny <home@bezdomny.org> wrote:
> 
> Hey guys, is there any technical truth to this? if so, then a 
compromised phone is the least of your worries!
> 
http://www.eweek.com/security/nsa-can-hack-you-even-if-you-arent-connected-to-the-internet.html
> 
> I think we should focus on autonomy rather than security. Security is a 
dream, but at least autonomy, the ability to interact without having your 
communications altered/censored/interfered with is a strong selling point.
> 
> As far as the manifesto, I get bored writing alone, would be fun to do a
manifesto “sprint” where it’s collaboratively written. 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 14:37, panayotis antoniadis <panayotis@nethood.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Indeed, this is the point of no return that I was always scared of :-)
>> 
>> I agree that editing a manifesto could be very helpful and constructive 
>> and I could
>> compromise with the declaration of an "open manifesto" subject to 
>> continuous change
>> and appropriation from different groups.
>> 
>> As for the potential future of these networks, there were similar views 
>> on the
>> use of the personal computer (there is a famous quote by someone saying
>> that he cannot imagine what would be the use of them). When these
>> "personal networks" will be as easy (or better easier) than a blog to setup
>> you will see what will happen. The trouble will start when the coolest 
>> personal
>> network will be the iBox by Apple :-)
>> 
>> By the way, privacy is a very tricky point and I find very dangerous the 
>> illusion
>> of privacy that such networks "islands" could offer (it is not so 
>> difficult for the
>> NSA or other curious institutions to actually listen to these as well. A 
>> compromised
>> smartphone of an innocent user would be enough).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>> MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>>> 
>>> you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>>>> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>>>> face with Invisible Islands.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>> http://ffctn.com
>>>> T:  514-664-4654
>>>> C:  438-880-0123
>>>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>>>> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>    I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>>>    thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>>>    would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>>>    come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>>>    start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>>>    individual participants and as a group.
>>>> 
>>>>    also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>>>    not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>>>    networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>>>    stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>>>    tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>>>    of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>>>    off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>>>    point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>>>    of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>>>    ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>>>    otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>>>> 
>>>>    - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>>> 
>>>>    sarah
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>    On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>>>>    <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>>>>    unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>>>>    do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>>>>    & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>>>>    Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>>>>    how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>>>>    from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>>>>    would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>>>>    off-nets.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>>>>    created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    -- Sébastien
>>>>> 
>>>>>    --
>>>>>    ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>>>    htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>>>>    T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>>>>    C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>>>>    L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>>>>    <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de 
<mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>>>>>> this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
>>>>>> steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
>>>>>> together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
>>>>>> you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
>>>>>> internet shut down etc…
>>>>>        Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>>>>        in and drastically change our every day communication
>>>>>        platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>>>>        creative and open.
>>>>>        Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>>>>> till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>>>>> and hang on to google etc
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> what could go wrong :-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
>>>>>>> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both 
from our own
>>>>>>> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
>>>>>>> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> from the past.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
>>>>>>> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>>>>        Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>>>>>>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>>>>        centralizing
>>>>>>>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - connect
>>>>>>>> - find common interests
>>>>>>>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>>>>        wikipedia)
>>>>>>>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>>>>>>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>>>>        protocols?
>>>>>>>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>>>>        like this) ?
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>>>>        discussions going on
>>>>>>>> already ..;)
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Matthias Strubel
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 15:58
Sorry, the mail client went crazy because of bad connection in the train. 
Never happened before x.X

Matthias

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Aram Bartholl
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 19:06
you prolly got hacked while you were offline... :D

in case you haven t seen before this is how the nsa hacks offline
compouters as described by jacob applebaum last year ccc

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/01/jacob-appelbaum-30c3-protect-infect-militarization-internet-transcript.html
.. high tech and prolly only on selected targets


On 28.11.2014 16:58, Matthias Strubel wrote:
> Sorry, the mail client went crazy because of bad connection in the train. 
> Never happened before x.X
> 
> Matthias
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Bezdomny
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 19:20
I saw his presentation at Transmediale in January, I think it's the same
about the usb cables that "come alive".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndx0eox0Lkg

I've been thinking that half of that stuff is real and half is fake and the
US, as is its tradition, likes to trick people into being scared because it
costs much less than actually making this stuff.

Did you know that when reagan was first elected pres. he was walking around
the White House wondering where the War Room
<http://www.theguardian.com/film/2001/nov/14/artsfeatures1> was? He saw it
in Kubrik's movie and thought that it actually existed.
Two years later he invented the ill fated "star wars
<http://www.atomicarchive.com/History/coldwar/page20.shtml>" program to
shoot down Soviet ICBMs with lasers. from outer space.

The Russians believed this malarkey and, as the US correctly strategised,
spent themselves further into the hole trying to outdo this chicanery. This
was the essence of the cold war, a big joke to bankrupt the foolish
communists into starving themselves into submission at the costs of fancy
guns. (my opinion only)



On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de>
wrote:

> you prolly got hacked while you were offline... :D
>
> in case you haven t seen before this is how the nsa hacks offline
> compouters as described by jacob applebaum last year ccc
>
> 
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/01/jacob-appelbaum-30c3-protect-infect-militarization-internet-transcript.html
> .. high tech and prolly only on selected targets
>
>
> On 28.11.2014 16:58, Matthias Strubel wrote:
> > Sorry, the mail client went crazy because of bad connection in the train.
> > Never happened before x.X
> >
> > Matthias
> >
>

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Matthias Strubel
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 14:56
Hey,
About that article, stay cool. IMHO it is not as dangerous as the article 
tries to illustrate.

See this sentence:
"The target machines first are compromised by way of a USB stick or tiny 
circuit board that broadcasts the information."
They infected the target computer with additional hardware.

Later the author describes that it is a different communication style then
normal wifi. And if it is,  you are able to write detectors 

Well.... Maybe I got something wrong but to me it still sound more like a 
agent story.

But on the flipped side of that story: who was able to imagine wall this 
NSA stuff, that person would be locked away because of being insane.


My two cents

Matthias 


> On 28 Nov 2014, at 14:45, Bezdomny <home@bezdomny.org> wrote:
> 
> Hey guys, is there any technical truth to this? if so, then a 
compromised phone is the least of your worries!
> 
http://www.eweek.com/security/nsa-can-hack-you-even-if-you-arent-connected-to-the-internet.html
> 
> I think we should focus on autonomy rather than security. Security is a 
dream, but at least autonomy, the ability to interact without having your 
communications altered/censored/interfered with is a strong selling point.
> 
> As far as the manifesto, I get bored writing alone, would be fun to do a
manifesto “sprint” where it’s collaboratively written. 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 14:37, panayotis antoniadis <panayotis@nethood.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Indeed, this is the point of no return that I was always scared of :-)
>> 
>> I agree that editing a manifesto could be very helpful and constructive 
>> and I could
>> compromise with the declaration of an "open manifesto" subject to 
>> continuous change
>> and appropriation from different groups.
>> 
>> As for the potential future of these networks, there were similar views 
>> on the
>> use of the personal computer (there is a famous quote by someone saying
>> that he cannot imagine what would be the use of them). When these
>> "personal networks" will be as easy (or better easier) than a blog to setup
>> you will see what will happen. The trouble will start when the coolest 
>> personal
>> network will be the iBox by Apple :-)
>> 
>> By the way, privacy is a very tricky point and I find very dangerous the 
>> illusion
>> of privacy that such networks "islands" could offer (it is not so 
>> difficult for the
>> NSA or other curious institutions to actually listen to these as well. A 
>> compromised
>> smartphone of an innocent user would be enough).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>> MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>>> 
>>> you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>>>> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>>>> face with Invisible Islands.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>> http://ffctn.com
>>>> T:  514-664-4654
>>>> C:  438-880-0123
>>>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>>>> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>    I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>>>    thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>>>    would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>>>    come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>>>    start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>>>    individual participants and as a group.
>>>> 
>>>>    also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>>>    not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>>>    networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>>>    stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>>>    tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>>>    of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>>>    off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>>>    point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>>>    of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>>>    ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>>>    otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>>>> 
>>>>    - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>>> 
>>>>    sarah
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>    On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>>>>    <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>>>>    unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>>>>    do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>>>>    & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>>>>    Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>>>>    how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>>>>    from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>>>>    would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>>>>    off-nets.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>>>>    created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    -- Sébastien
>>>>> 
>>>>>    --
>>>>>    ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>>>    htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>>>>    T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>>>>    C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>>>>    L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>>>>    <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de 
<mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>>>>>> this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
>>>>>> steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
>>>>>> together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
>>>>>> you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
>>>>>> internet shut down etc…
>>>>>        Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>>>>        in and drastically change our every day communication
>>>>>        platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>>>>        creative and open.
>>>>>        Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>>>>> till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>>>>> and hang on to google etc
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> what could go wrong :-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
>>>>>>> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both 
from our own
>>>>>>> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
>>>>>>> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> from the past.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
>>>>>>> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>>>>        Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>>>>>>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>>>>        centralizing
>>>>>>>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - connect
>>>>>>>> - find common interests
>>>>>>>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>>>>        wikipedia)
>>>>>>>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>>>>>>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>>>>        protocols?
>>>>>>>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>>>>        like this) ?
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>>>>        discussions going on
>>>>>>>> already ..;)
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Matthias Strubel
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 14:56
Hey,
About that article, stay cool. IMHO it is not as dangerous as the article 
tries to illustrate.

See this sentence:
"The target machines first are compromised by way of a USB stick or tiny 
circuit board that broadcasts the information."
They infected the target computer with additional hardware.

Later the author describes that it is a different communication style then
normal wifi. And if it is,  you are able to write detectors 

Well.... Maybe I got something wrong but to me it still sound more like a 
agent story.

But on the flipped side of that story: who was able to imagine wall this 
NSA stuff, that person would be locked away because of being insane.


My two cents

Matthias 


> On 28 Nov 2014, at 14:45, Bezdomny <home@bezdomny.org> wrote:
> 
> Hey guys, is there any technical truth to this? if so, then a 
compromised phone is the least of your worries!
> 
http://www.eweek.com/security/nsa-can-hack-you-even-if-you-arent-connected-to-the-internet.html
> 
> I think we should focus on autonomy rather than security. Security is a 
dream, but at least autonomy, the ability to interact without having your 
communications altered/censored/interfered with is a strong selling point.
> 
> As far as the manifesto, I get bored writing alone, would be fun to do a
manifesto “sprint” where it’s collaboratively written. 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 14:37, panayotis antoniadis <panayotis@nethood.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Indeed, this is the point of no return that I was always scared of :-)
>> 
>> I agree that editing a manifesto could be very helpful and constructive 
>> and I could
>> compromise with the declaration of an "open manifesto" subject to 
>> continuous change
>> and appropriation from different groups.
>> 
>> As for the potential future of these networks, there were similar views 
>> on the
>> use of the personal computer (there is a famous quote by someone saying
>> that he cannot imagine what would be the use of them). When these
>> "personal networks" will be as easy (or better easier) than a blog to setup
>> you will see what will happen. The trouble will start when the coolest 
>> personal
>> network will be the iBox by Apple :-)
>> 
>> By the way, privacy is a very tricky point and I find very dangerous the 
>> illusion
>> of privacy that such networks "islands" could offer (it is not so 
>> difficult for the
>> NSA or other curious institutions to actually listen to these as well. A 
>> compromised
>> smartphone of an innocent user would be enough).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>> MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>>> 
>>> you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>>>> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>>>> face with Invisible Islands.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>> http://ffctn.com
>>>> T:  514-664-4654
>>>> C:  438-880-0123
>>>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>>>> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>    I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>>>    thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>>>    would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>>>    come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>>>    start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>>>    individual participants and as a group.
>>>> 
>>>>    also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>>>    not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>>>    networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>>>    stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>>>    tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>>>    of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>>>    off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>>>    point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>>>    of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>>>    ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>>>    otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>>>> 
>>>>    - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>>> 
>>>>    sarah
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>    On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>>>>    <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>>>>    unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>>>>    do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>>>>    & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>>>>    Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>>>>    how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>>>>    from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>>>>    would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>>>>    off-nets.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>>>>    created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    -- Sébastien
>>>>> 
>>>>>    --
>>>>>    ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>>>    htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>>>>    T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>>>>    C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>>>>    L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>>>>    <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de 
<mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>>>>>> this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
>>>>>> steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
>>>>>> together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
>>>>>> you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
>>>>>> internet shut down etc…
>>>>>        Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>>>>        in and drastically change our every day communication
>>>>>        platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>>>>        creative and open.
>>>>>        Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>>>>> till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>>>>> and hang on to google etc
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> what could go wrong :-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
>>>>>>> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both 
from our own
>>>>>>> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
>>>>>>> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> from the past.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
>>>>>>> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>>>>        Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>>>>>>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>>>>        centralizing
>>>>>>>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - connect
>>>>>>>> - find common interests
>>>>>>>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>>>>        wikipedia)
>>>>>>>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>>>>>>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>>>>        protocols?
>>>>>>>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>>>>        like this) ?
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>>>>        discussions going on
>>>>>>>> already ..;)
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Matthias Strubel
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 14:56
Hey,
About that article, stay cool. IMHO it is not as dangerous as the article 
tries to illustrate.

See this sentence:
"The target machines first are compromised by way of a USB stick or tiny 
circuit board that broadcasts the information."
They infected the target computer with additional hardware.

Later the author describes that it is a different communication style then
normal wifi. And if it is,  you are able to write detectors 

Well.... Maybe I got something wrong but to me it still sound more like a 
agent story.

But on the flipped side of that story: who was able to imagine wall this 
NSA stuff, that person would be locked away because of being insane.


My two cents

Matthias 


> On 28 Nov 2014, at 14:45, Bezdomny <home@bezdomny.org> wrote:
> 
> Hey guys, is there any technical truth to this? if so, then a 
compromised phone is the least of your worries!
> 
http://www.eweek.com/security/nsa-can-hack-you-even-if-you-arent-connected-to-the-internet.html
> 
> I think we should focus on autonomy rather than security. Security is a 
dream, but at least autonomy, the ability to interact without having your 
communications altered/censored/interfered with is a strong selling point.
> 
> As far as the manifesto, I get bored writing alone, would be fun to do a
manifesto “sprint” where it’s collaboratively written. 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2014, at 14:37, panayotis antoniadis <panayotis@nethood.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Indeed, this is the point of no return that I was always scared of :-)
>> 
>> I agree that editing a manifesto could be very helpful and constructive 
>> and I could
>> compromise with the declaration of an "open manifesto" subject to 
>> continuous change
>> and appropriation from different groups.
>> 
>> As for the potential future of these networks, there were similar views 
>> on the
>> use of the personal computer (there is a famous quote by someone saying
>> that he cannot imagine what would be the use of them). When these
>> "personal networks" will be as easy (or better easier) than a blog to setup
>> you will see what will happen. The trouble will start when the coolest 
>> personal
>> network will be the iBox by Apple :-)
>> 
>> By the way, privacy is a very tricky point and I find very dangerous the 
>> illusion
>> of privacy that such networks "islands" could offer (it is not so 
>> difficult for the
>> NSA or other curious institutions to actually listen to these as well. A 
>> compromised
>> smartphone of an innocent user would be enough).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>> MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>>> 
>>> you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>>>> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>>>> face with Invisible Islands.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>> http://ffctn.com
>>>> T:  514-664-4654
>>>> C:  438-880-0123
>>>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>>>> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>    I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>>>    thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>>>    would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>>>    come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>>>    start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>>>    individual participants and as a group.
>>>> 
>>>>    also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>>>    not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>>>    networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>>>    stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>>>    tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>>>    of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>>>    off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>>>    point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>>>    of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>>>    ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>>>    otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>>>> 
>>>>    - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>>> 
>>>>    sarah
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>    On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>>>>    <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>>>>    unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>>>>    do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>>>>    & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>>>>    Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>>>>    how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>>>>    from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>>>>    would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>>>>    off-nets.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>>>>    created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    -- Sébastien
>>>>> 
>>>>>    --
>>>>>    ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>>>    htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>>>>    T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>>>>    C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>>>>    L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>>>>    <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de 
<mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>>>>>> this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, manifesto (next
>>>>>> steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about just getting
>>>>>> together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not convenient.
>>>>>> you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian scenario coming,
>>>>>> internet shut down etc…
>>>>>        Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>>>>        in and drastically change our every day communication
>>>>>        platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>>>>        creative and open.
>>>>>        Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>>>>> till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>>>>> and hang on to google etc
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the same keep
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> what could go wrong :-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast and if we are
>>>>>>> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, both 
from our own
>>>>>>> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be very careful!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a "manifesto" or
>>>>>>> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn as much as
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> from the past.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos searching for some
>>>>>>> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>>>>        Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>>>>>>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>>>>        centralizing
>>>>>>>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - connect
>>>>>>>> - find common interests
>>>>>>>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>>>>        wikipedia)
>>>>>>>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>>>>>>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>>>>        protocols?
>>>>>>>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>>>>        like this) ?
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>>>>        discussions going on
>>>>>>>> already ..;)
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Aram Bartholl
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 21:02
is this our logo then??
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Html5_offline_storage.svg
T-shirts?? ;)))
On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
> MANIFESTOOOOO!!
> 
> you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
> 
> 
> On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>> face with Invisible Islands.
>>
>> --
>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>> http://ffctn.com
>> T:  514-664-4654
>> C:  438-880-0123
>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>
>>     I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>     thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>     would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>     come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>     start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>     individual participants and as a group.
>>
>>     also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>     not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>     networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>     stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>     tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>     of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>     off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>     point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>     of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>     ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>     otherwise involved with technology or computer networking. 
>>
>>     - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>
>>     sarah
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>     On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>>     <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>>     unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>>     do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>>     & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>>     Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>>
>>>     Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>>     how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>>     from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>>     would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>>     off-nets.
>>>
>>>     I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>>     created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>>
>>>     -- Sébastien
>>>
>>>     --
>>>     ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>>     htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>>     T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>>     C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>>     L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>>
>>>     On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>>     <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi all,
>>>
>>>         Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>>
>>>         > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl 
<bartholl@datenform.de <mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>>         >
>>>         > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke because
>>>         > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist, 
manifesto (next
>>>         > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about 
just getting
>>>         > together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>>         >
>>>         > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not 
convenient.
>>>         > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian 
scenario coming,
>>>         > internet shut down etc…
>>>         Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>>         in and drastically change our every day communication
>>>         platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>>         creative and open.
>>>         Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>>         > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>>         > and hang on to google etc
>>>         >
>>>         >
>>>         > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>>         >>
>>>         >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the
same keep
>>>         >> thinking
>>>         >> what could go wrong :-)
>>>         >>
>>>         >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast 
and if we are
>>>         >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution, 
both from our own
>>>         >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be
very careful!
>>>         >>
>>>         >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a
"manifesto" or
>>>         >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn
as much as
>>>         >> possible
>>>         >> from the past.
>>>         >>
>>>         >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos 
searching for some
>>>         >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>>         Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>>         >>
>>>         >>
>>>         >>
>>>         >>
>>>         >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>>         >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>>         centralizing
>>>         >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>>         >>>
>>>         >>> - connect
>>>         >>> - find common interests
>>>         >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>>         wikipedia)
>>>         >>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>>         >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>>         protocols?
>>>         >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>>         like this) ?
>>>         >>> ...
>>>         >>>
>>>         >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>>         discussions going on
>>>         >>> already ..;)
>>>         >>
>>>         >>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Sébastien Pierre
Date:
2014-11-27 @ 22:46
Pretty good logo, I have to say!

--
ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
http://ffctn.com
T:  514-664-4654
C:  438-880-0123
L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de>
wrote:

> is this our logo then??
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Html5_offline_storage.svg
> T-shirts?? ;)))
> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
> > MANIFESTOOOOO!!
> >
> > you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
> >
> >
> > On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
> >> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
> >> face with Invisible Islands.
> >>
> >> --
> >> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
> >> http://ffctn.com
> >> T:  514-664-4654
> >> C:  438-880-0123
> >> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
> >> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
> >>     thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
> >>     would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
> >>     come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
> >>     start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
> >>     individual participants and as a group.
> >>
> >>     also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
> >>     not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
> >>     networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
> >>     stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
> >>     tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
> >>     of potential to get people interested in creating their own
> >>     off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
> >>     point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
> >>     of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
> >>     ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
> >>     otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
> >>
> >>     - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
> >>
> >>     sarah
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>     On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
> >>>     <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>     Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
> >>>     unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
> >>>     do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
> >>>     & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
> >>>     Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
> >>>
> >>>     Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
> >>>     how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
> >>>     from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
> >>>     would help people better understand the value and potential of
> >>>     off-nets.
> >>>
> >>>     I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
> >>>     created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
> >>>
> >>>     -- Sébastien
> >>>
> >>>     --
> >>>     ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
> >>>     htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
> >>>     T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
> >>>     C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
> >>>     L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
> >>>
> >>>     On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
> >>>     <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>         Hi all,
> >>>
> >>>         Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
> >>>
> >>>         > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <
> bartholl@datenform.de <mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
> >>>         >
> >>>         > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a joke
> because
> >>>         > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist,
> manifesto (next
> >>>         > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about
> just getting
> >>>         > together and discussing on very informal bases...
> >>>         >
> >>>         > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not
> convenient.
> >>>         > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian
> scenario coming,
> >>>         > internet shut down etc…
> >>>         Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
> >>>         in and drastically change our every day communication
> >>>         platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
> >>>         creative and open.
> >>>         Just a thought … and a vision :)
> >>>         > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
> >>>         > and hang on to google etc
> >>>         >
> >>>         >
> >>>         > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at the
> same keep
> >>>         >> thinking
> >>>         >> what could go wrong :-)
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast
> and if we are
> >>>         >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution,
> both from our own
> >>>         >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to be
> very careful!
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast a
> "manifesto" or
> >>>         >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to learn
> as much as
> >>>         >> possible
> >>>         >> from the past.
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos
> searching for some
> >>>         >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
> >>>         Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
> >>>         >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
> >>>         centralizing
> >>>         >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
> >>>         >>>
> >>>         >>> - connect
> >>>         >>> - find common interests
> >>>         >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
> >>>         wikipedia)
> >>>         >>> - discuss possible common tech?
> >>>         >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
> >>>         protocols?
> >>>         >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
> >>>         like this) ?
> >>>         >>> ...
> >>>         >>>
> >>>         >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
> >>>         discussions going on
> >>>         >>> already ..;)
> >>>         >>
> >>>         >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Bezdomny
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 07:33
I want to have some tshirts printed that say "Only Available Offline"
-is there a way to make that look sexy?
On Nov 28, 2014 12:46 AM, "Sébastien Pierre" <sebastien@ffctn.com> wrote:

> Pretty good logo, I have to say!
>
> --
> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
> http://ffctn.com
> T:  514-664-4654
> C:  438-880-0123
> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de>
> wrote:
>
>> is this our logo then??
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Html5_offline_storage.svg
>> T-shirts
>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Html5_offline_storage.svgT-shirts>??
>> ;)))
>> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>> > MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>> >
>> > you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>> >
>> >
>> > On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>> >> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>> >> face with Invisible Islands.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>> >> http://ffctn.com
>> >> T:  514-664-4654
>> >> C:  438-880-0123
>> >> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>> >> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>     I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>> >>     thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>> >>     would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>> >>     come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>> >>     start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>> >>     individual participants and as a group.
>> >>
>> >>     also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>> >>     not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>> >>     networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>> >>     stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks +
>> how
>> >>     tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a
>> lot
>> >>     of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>> >>     off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>> >>     point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>> >>     of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>> >>     ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>> >>     otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>> >>
>> >>     - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>> >>
>> >>     sarah
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>     On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <
>> sebastien@ffctn.com
>> >>>     <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>     Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>> >>>     unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>> >>>     do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>> >>>     & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>> >>>     Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>> >>>
>> >>>     Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>> >>>     how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>> >>>     from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>> >>>     would help people better understand the value and potential of
>> >>>     off-nets.
>> >>>
>> >>>     I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>> >>>     created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>> >>>
>> >>>     -- Sébastien
>> >>>
>> >>>     --
>> >>>     ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>> >>>     htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>> >>>     T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>> >>>     C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>> >>>     L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>> >>>
>> >>>     On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>> >>>     <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>         Hi all,
>> >>>
>> >>>         Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>> >>>
>> >>>         > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl <
>> bartholl@datenform.de <mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a
>> joke because
>> >>>         > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist,
>> manifesto (next
>> >>>         > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really about
>> just getting
>> >>>         > together and discussing on very informal bases...
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s not
>> convenient.
>> >>>         > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian
>> scenario coming,
>> >>>         > internet shut down etc…
>> >>>         Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>> >>>         in and drastically change our every day communication
>> >>>         platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>> >>>         creative and open.
>> >>>         Just a thought … and a vision :)
>> >>>         > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>> >>>         > and hang on to google etc
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         >
>> >>>         > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at
>> the same keep
>> >>>         >> thinking
>> >>>         >> what could go wrong :-)
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> This is the type of technology that can explode very fast
>> and if we are
>> >>>         >> going to help even a little in its framing and evolution,
>> both from our own
>> >>>         >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need to
>> be very careful!
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too fast
>> a "manifesto" or
>> >>>         >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to
>> learn as much as
>> >>>         >> possible
>> >>>         >> from the past.
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos
>> searching for some
>> >>>         >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>> >>>         Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>> >>>         >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>> >>>         centralizing
>> >>>         >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>> >>>         >>>
>> >>>         >>> - connect
>> >>>         >>> - find common interests
>> >>>         >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>> >>>         wikipedia)
>> >>>         >>> - discuss possible common tech?
>> >>>         >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>> >>>         protocols?
>> >>>         >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>> >>>         like this) ?
>> >>>         >>> ...
>> >>>         >>>
>> >>>         >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>> >>>         discussions going on
>> >>>         >>> already ..;)
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>         >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: [off.networks] definition/ goals/ manifesto

From:
Matthias Strubel
Date:
2014-11-28 @ 07:55
+1



> On 28 Nov 2014, at 08:33, Bezdomny <home@bezdomny.org> wrote:
> 
> I want to have some tshirts printed that say "Only Available Offline"  
> -is there a way to make that look sexy?
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2014 12:46 AM, "Sébastien Pierre" <sebastien@ffctn.com> wrote:
>> Pretty good logo, I have to say!
>> 
>> --
>> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>> http://ffctn.com
>> T:  514-664-4654
>> C:  438-880-0123
>> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Aram Bartholl <bartholl@datenform.de> wrote:
>>> is this our logo then??
>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Html5_offline_storage.svg
>>> T-shirts?? ;)))
>>> On 27.11.2014 21:36, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>> > MANIFESTOOOOO!!
>>> >
>>> > you kicked it off @panayotis !! is too late now (we all gonna die!! ;))
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 27.11.2014 18:08, Sébastien Pierre wrote:
>>> >> I couldn't agree more -- it's precisely the kind of challenges I had to
>>> >> face with Invisible Islands.
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>> >> http://ffctn.com
>>> >> T:  514-664-4654
>>> >> C:  438-880-0123
>>> >> L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Sarah Grant <info@subnod.es
>>> >> <mailto:info@subnod.es>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>     I feel that by working on a manifesto, we can start to organize our
>>> >>     thoughts and define a few things as a group. However, i imagine it
>>> >>     would be a document open to change and redefinition as new ideas
>>> >>     come to light / things are learned. I think it’s a great place to
>>> >>     start defining what it is we really are trying to accomplish as
>>> >>     individual participants and as a group.
>>> >>
>>> >>     also, +10000 for community networks! I agree that off-networks are
>>> >>     not convenient w/r/t what we are usually doing online (social
>>> >>     networks, purchases, news, etc), but i think the inconvenience also
>>> >>     stems from a lack of understanding of how to use such networks + how
>>> >>     tedious it might seem to set one up yourself. I think there is a lot
>>> >>     of potential to get people interested in creating their own
>>> >>     off-network for whatever reason, if we gave them some kind of entry
>>> >>     point in that assisted with the set-up and design (maybe some kind
>>> >>     of template system or UI kit, for example?). By the way, when i say
>>> >>     ‘people’ and ‘them’, i am referring to ordinary citizens who aren’t
>>> >>     otherwise involved with technology or computer networking.
>>> >>
>>> >>     - just some thoughts i’ve been mulling over…
>>> >>
>>> >>     sarah
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>     On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sébastien Pierre <sebastien@ffctn.com
>>> >>>     <mailto:sebastien@ffctn.com>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>     Off-networks are not convenient, and as poi nted by Aram, they're
>>> >>>     unlikely to become mainstream just because of that. However, they
>>> >>>     do have potential practical applications as explored by Panayotis
>>> >>>     & al. Off-nets are a great way to question our dependency on the
>>> >>>     Internet (with all the risks and problems that come with that).
>>> >>>
>>> >>>     Writing a manifesto would definitely help scope off-networks, and
>>> >>>     how their properties differ from the Internet and offer shelters
>>> >>>     from surveillance and information sharing restraints. I think this
>>> >>>     would help people better understand the value and potential of
>>> >>>     off-nets.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>     I'm super interested in leaning stories of other people who
>>> >>>     created off-nets and their experience with users/audience.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>     -- Sébastien
>>> >>>
>>> >>>     --
>>> >>>     ffunction inc. |  interfaces & visualisations
>>> >>>     htt p://ffctn.com <http:%20//ffctn.com/>
>>> >>>     T:  514-664-4654 <tel:514-664-4654>
>>> >>>     C:  438-880-0123 <tel:438-880-0123>
>>> >>>     L:  400 Atlantic, Suite #301, Montréal, QC H2V 1A5 Canada
>>> >>>
>>> >>>     On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Joseph Bonicioli
>>> >>>     <nettraptor@awmn.net <mailto:nettraptor@awmn.net>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>         Hi all,
>>> >>>
>>> >>>         Nice to be here! I will be watching this space…;)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>         > On 27 Νοε 2014, at 2:49 μ.μ., Aram Bartholl 
<bartholl@datenform.de <mailto:bartholl@datenform.de>> wrote:
>>> >>>         >
>>> >>>         > ja, i agree. the manifesto proposal was also a bit of a 
joke because
>>> >>>         > this is the typical way of founding something emaillist,
manifesto (next
>>> >>>         > steps logo and T-shirts ;) but it is in fact really 
about just getting
>>> >>>         > together and discussing on very informal bases...
>>> >>>         >
>>> >>>         > i don t think this movement will explode, because it s 
not convenient.
>>> >>>         > you are offline... :)) unless there is big dystopian 
scenario coming,
>>> >>>         > internet shut down etc…
>>> >>>         Or Community Networks (in every possible form and shape) kick
>>> >>>         in and drastically change our every day communication
>>> >>>         platforms to something more distributed, autonomous, secure,
>>> >>>         creative and open.
>>> >>>         Just a thought … and a vision :)
>>> >>>         > till then 99,9% of the ppl will be just lazy
>>> >>>         > and hang on to google etc
>>> >>>         >
>>> >>>         >
>>> >>>         > Am 27.11.14 13:42, schrieb panayotis antoniadis:
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >> Just to add that I am very excited with all this and at
the same keep
>>> >>>         >> thinking
>>> >>>         >> what could go wrong :-)
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >> This is the type of technology that can explode very 
fast and if we are
>>> >>>         >> going to help even a little in its framing and 
evolution, both from our own
>>> >>>         >> individual perspectives and as a "community", we need 
to be very careful!
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >> So, personally I would be reluctant in producing too 
fast a "manifesto" or
>>> >>>         >> a "single" identity. We can take it slowly and try to 
learn as much as
>>> >>>         >> possible
>>> >>>         >> from the past.
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >> For this, I plan to go through these 32 dada manifestos
searching for some
>>> >>>         >> inspiration: http://www.ubu.com/papers/#dada :-)
>>> >>>         Gia sou Panayioti!!!! Yap I am here too!
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >> On 27.11.2014 13:21, Aram Bartholl wrote:
>>> >>>         >>> as panayotis mentioned before it is not so much about
>>> >>>         centralizing
>>> >>>         >>> things but it would be very interesting to:
>>> >>>         >>>
>>> >>>         >>> - connect
>>> >>>         >>> - find common interests
>>> >>>         >>> - come up with a definition of the whole field (also for
>>> >>>         wikipedia)
>>> >>>         >>> - discuss possible common tech?
>>> >>>         >>> - do projects need to be interconnectable? standards/
>>> >>>         protocols?
>>> >>>         >>> - api for location and services (freifunk has something
>>> >>>         like this) ?
>>> >>>         >>> ...
>>> >>>         >>>
>>> >>>         >>> i m just guessing around here, you guys prolly have
>>> >>>         discussions going on
>>> >>>         >>> already ..;)
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>         >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >